Having first read Mr.Jared's answer to M.S. and then the piece below I also feel that I have to announce that unusually I'm in agreement with him. When talking about desperation as the basis for suicide bombings I was referring to the mostly young people who carried the act out (the fact that they themselves do not see it like that but as a noble act is not of prime importance here) and not to the masterminds! As to them I agree with what Mr. Jared writes [though I would use the notion of 'fascism' with utmost reservation here). I only have one disagreement to voice: I don't know about any islamic fundamentalism which has 'so many times viciously assaulted the Serbian people'. Neither the Ottomans were 'islamic fundamentalists' and if they were this was not their reason for subjugating the people of the Balkans nor is the basis for Albanian nationalism any sort of islamism. So who are the islamists (apart from a comparatively few foreign 'Mojahedin' in Bosnia) who assauilted the 'Serbian people'? A.Holberg
[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: > In a message dated 4/22/02 5:47:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > << The main problem with > the islamists is not that their methods (which on an individual level are of > course an understandable although very bad expression of utter desperation) > will > not liberate Palestine (which they won't) but that their social and > political > program is directed against the working class in the islamic countries and > therefore against the working class world wide. >> > > I am in the unusual position of agreeing with Mr. Holberg. Except for this: > I don't see suicide bombing as being MAINLY a reflection of desperation. I > will post here the comments I made to one Bob Djurdjevic, a right wing Serb > who (sorry MacDonald) shares the newly approved left wing tolerance of > suicide bombing. Here's my email to Mr. Djudjevic: > Dear Mr. Djurdjevic, > > In a previous email, sent out from your email address, > [EMAIL PROTECTED], you wrote: > > << > And when it [i.e. terrorism] is done as a part of a state policy, it is even > more despicable than the individual suicide bombings against innocent > Israelis. Kind of like organized crime vs. individual criminal acts. > >> > > To which I replied: "Do you actually believe that the suicide bombings are > individual acts? What nonsense." > > To which you wrote: > > << > Suicide is BY DEFINITION a lonely and an individual decision. Plus, two > wrongs still don't make a right - as I also said. > >> > > To which I say: All acts - including suicide - are BY DEFINITION individual > and lonely: that is man's fate. But these suicide bombings are no more > isolated from organizational indoctrination and support than any military act > carried out by an individual. And note, the targets are always civilians: > this is intended to polarize, to make it impossible for Israelis to rally > other Israelis to a peace position. They are intended to justify the harshest > measures and a spiral of hate. And they are meant - above all - to have an > impact on the more than a billion Muslims who are watching. To support the > spread of fascist thinking among oppressed people. > > A moment's thought makes it obvious that a sustained campaign of suicide > bombing, all targeting civilians, by the way, not the military, and taking > place despite massive counter-security, requires the strongest and most > disciplined organization - both to find and indoctrinate the potential > bombers with Islamist fanaticism, to sustain them before the act, to prevent > discovery by security forces, to supply them, to move them into place, and to > provide propaganda and aid to the families afterwards in order to make heroes > out of the "lonely bombers" and thus popularize the act and produce more > recruits who must then be found, and so on. In other words, they are not > "individual" and they are not simply acts of desperation. They are viewed by > the participants as acts of great nobility. > > This suicide bombing in fact requires the greatest organizational/propaganda > support. The only sense in which it is a lone act is that it is the > antithesis of mass political mobilization against oppressive institutions. > Rather, it sees THE JEWS as the enemy of THE MUSLIMS. It is > religious-centered, justified by a sect-like religious mentality, and > promotes the worst kind of fanaticism on all sides. > > It is rather striking, Mr. Djurdjevic, that you, a supposed opponent of > Islamic fundamentalist terrorism which has so viciously assaulted the Serbian > people so many times, would find Islamist terrorist suicide bombers to be the > lesser of two evils (your words) because of the argument that suicide bombing > is individual. Do you perhaps have a problem with Jews, as I have suggested > to you when you publicly endorsed theories about the Jews running the world, > and other anti-Semitic propaganda? You remember, you endorsed the so-called > theory of the Illumanti, and so on... > > I happen to loathe Zionism; always have. But that is not relevant to what YOU > said: that Israeli government acts of terror are by definition worse than > these suicide bombings because the former are organized and the latter are > individual acts (of desperation, apparently). > > PS In THIS campaign the Israeli army is not bombing from above the clouds - > they've done that before, to be sure - like your and my country did to > Yugoslavia. They are fighting on the ground, thus providing numerous photo > ops to prove they are monsters. And the media is cooperating in furnishing > that proof. Isn't that food for thought? And Mr. Solanathe Spanish and other > governments that endorsed the genocide against the Serbs - indeed, the > Vatican as well, the same Vatican that is making a saint out of the Croatian > Ustashe monster Archbishop Stepinac! - have suddently discovered their > conscience and are calling this genocide. Is something wrong with this > picture? > > The real issue here is: the leadership of Israel and the Palestinians, all of > them under the US thumb as far as I can see, are aiding the US project which > is the radical Islamization of the Muslim masses. I mean by "under the US > thumb": Mr. Sharon, who has conducted a policy geared, like that of the > suicide bombers, to polarizing ordinary people and isolating those who would > make peace, Sharon, who does everything to justify Islamist rhetoric, but > also the Hammas people and the PLA, who endorse terrorism against Israeli > civilians. The Israelis and the PA were both for a time openly being > "trained" by the CIA - and I believe Hammas is CIA-controlled as well. What a > nightmare! > > And THAT, which you seem not to notice, is the real nightmare - that > everything is being done to provide a nightly cable TV show broadcast to a > billion Muslims, entitled: THE JEWS ARE OUR ENEMY. This is the great tragedy, > for its has the most serious political consequences, first and foremost for > ordinary Muslims, who are, 90% them, like humans everywhere, the salt of the > earth. > > Jared Israel Editor, Emperor's Clothes > > PS Somebody challenged me, regarding my position against making war on > civilians, "What about Dresden." Dresden was a monstrous war crime, in my > opinion. My position is that of the Yugoslav Army, as documented in the book > I have posted on Emperor's Clothes, under the title 'The Other Side of the > Story', at > http://emperors-clothes.com/book/book1.htm > > That position is: never under any conditions make war on civilians. Period. > > _______________________________________________ > Leninist-International mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To change your options or unsubscribe go to: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international _______________________________________________ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
