Good evening again, Robert! Robert Goodman wrote to Frank Reichert...
I previously wrote: > >Okay. Again we are talking about New England, To which, you replied: > But the gov't school movement spread from there; it was almost simultaneous > in NY. And when I mentioned blue laws eariler in the thread, I sure wasn't > referring to New England alone. I understand that completely, or at least I think I do. At least I understand that the government school system concept originated in the very place one might least suspect it at that time, which is why I wrote earlier it was likely a 'last ditch' effort by a growing minority of Calvinists in New England to codify in practice what may have already been largely watered down. Again, as I wrote earlier, that backfired in their face in the decades ahead. It is important to try and maintain the time lines when these events occurred. This thread began with a simple assertion on my part, that Christmas was widely celebrated mostly throughout the late colonial period, in most of the colonies. And, as you might recall, I did concede at least that some of the 'evangelicals' and post Calvinists that were growing rapidly in various areas, likely didn't appreciate, or at least want to see that happen, but it had by that time, become far too late. You got to remember here that the colonies were really governed at that time more strongly by England, just prior to the uprising and revolution, but increasingly following the French and Indian war period. A lot of the traditional Christian groups were certainly around, getting well entrenched as well during this period of time, although probably not so profoundly in New England. What do you do with Anglicans? Anglicans have almost always followed the traditional Church calendar in which Christmas was a tremendous part, in fact, Advent, just prior to the Christmas season, IS the beginning of the Church year! Lutherans and Roman Catholics followed that same calendar, as they still do today! Often such groups migrated to areas in the colonies that were more favorable and acceptable, and probably not initially in New England, but much later on, European Catholics began migrating into New England and changed the landscape. In the prior history to that happening, and as it happened, the Calvinists probably believed the codifying into law various things might shield them from changing the status quo. History shows that not be what really happened at all. The 'Blue Laws' you seem to refer to here didn't enjoy such wide or universal acceptance either. Probably the greatest and most widely impacted 'Blue Law' of all, was prohibition which occurred much later, but the progressive movement by the evangelicals and others of like mind, culminated into that. It's interesting, as a Lutheran, to hear some of the stories that took place during that latest period. As it turned out, a lot of Lutherans migrated to the Mid-West, as did a lot of Roman Catholics, in places such as Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Missouri (well, I could include North Dakota as well, since my family on my father's side migrated there too). At any rate, some of these stories are certainly believable, and I have heard them corroborated over time, that I doubt such events were very isolated at all -- in fact they were likely very wide spread during the time of prohibition, and none of that can be attributed to the mob, or underground organized crime syndicates. The stories I have heard was that in various remote Lutheran congregations in the Mid-West, the men of the Church would meet in the Church basement for the purpose of brewing beer! Certainly not tremendously large quantities of beer, but since it was illegal to buy it on the open market at that time, the 'men of the church' ensured a steady flow of the stuff for local consumption anyway. Point is, 'Blue Laws' were never really most like, and in most cases, enshrined or encouraged by orthodox Christian Churches, and as I identified some of them tonight as being of Baptist origin, and what followed some of the movements that you spoke of earlier, that I went into that last night. Sure the evangelicals got their laws passed. Maybe the Anglicans (now called Episcopalians) have their own stories to tell as well. I doubt at THAT time that Lutherans or Episcopalians would call such resistance "civil disobedience", but looking back retrospectly tonight, it came pretty damn close to it, didn't it? They disobeyed the law as it then existed. They didn't flout it either. They just did it without the help or assistance of organized crime syndicates. Maybe I view what was obviously Christmas celebrations in America different from your own perspective, that is, identifying it often in terms of what I might call renegade sects stemming from Christianity in America, and believe me, America was full of them then, and even more full of them now, trying to prohibit such things as celebrating Christmas which has for centuries been a part of the Church callendar. It may have been prohibited particularly in New England. But I seriously doubt that it was certainly practiced there nonetheless! Such celebrations just weren't caught by the cops and prosecuted. You still haven't provided me any evidence at all that Christmas was outlawed in any other region of the colonies as they existed during the early times of English rule. I consider the Puritan movement to be largely such a renegade sect within the overall Calvinist movement. And, as I wrote before they did have some small impact at least within Calvinist groups, even the Presbyterians, but their impact overall was eventually displaced by more orthodox thinking. In fact, I believe that the trend in historically Calvinist churches such as the Presbyterian Church in the USA, and the current Reformed Churches, have become overall reactionary to the over stressing of Puritan influence in America in terms of identification. Both groups, or so it seems, have today largely walked away from Calvinism entirely. Kindest regards, Frank _______________________________________________ Libnw mailing list Libnw@immosys.com List info and subscriber options: http://immosys.com/mailman/listinfo/libnw Archives: http://immosys.com/mailman//pipermail/libnw
