Wow Mike, fascinating read. I'm the earliest of Millennials, so I did not completely grow up with the web, but most of the things I do online (such as participate in communities) I couldn't really do offline anyway, so I never developed this crazy efficient workflow of connected programs that I needed to later apply to the web. That said, I grew up with Windows, not GNU/Linux, so it wasn't as doable anyway. However, no matter what you gow up with, you have to be a certain type of person to even want to come up with your own whole system for that sort of thing in the first place; that used to be the type of person that dominated the computing world, but now we have most casual users who just want it to work. Speaking of that hacker type of person:
"Many of us hackers don't care for flashy interfaces" I guess I'm one of the few hackers that does indeed care about design. I can see why you might see it as frivolous, but I think it's a bit far to call it "flashy" when I can explain to you down to an *exact science* how well something is designed. The free software community, as addressed in Boston this year and nearly every year before it, has a well-documented problem with design, so I won't go into that here. "I haven't used Discourse. I do see "mailing list support"; maybe that's a good sign. But one of the phrases at the top of the features page is "[w]e're reimagining what a modern discussion platform should be". Many of us don't want to see it reimagined. That's the opposite of what many want." Going forward with your concession that most of the world doesn't "want to use their own tools", let's make sure we aren't hosting a fear-of-change flag here. Let's for a moment forget about who "wants" what, since what everyone "wants" is arbitrary, wavering, insatiable, and sometimes even in opposition to changes that are *objectively* better by every possible measure. You said it yourself. You don't want to use a poorly reinvented wheel. That's exactly what most forum sites have been. And to those who only know that world, the need for "reimagination" is obvious. Discourse is, in my opinion, a very nice wheel, and can likely be made to do whatever you need from your emacs setup. Find any establishment in history and you'll see that they probably did not "want" the wave of change that superceded them (discovery of electricity, industrial revolution, computers) even when that change was definitely an upgrade for the better. So while you may not see the need for a "re-imagination" of online discourse, I invite you try Discourse and tell me in what ways it's not better. Then we can potentially improve it for everyone. ________________________________ From: libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss-bounces+cnnr_dhrty=live....@libreplanet.org> on behalf of Mike Gerwitz <m...@gnu.org> Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 11:07:28 PM To: libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org Subject: Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Libreplanet using Discourse for mailing lists and web-based forums? On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 20:44:56 -0500, J.B. Nicholson wrote: > I don't see this as a problem. I see this as a feature: I have no problem > filing the list emails into a folder and reading them when I have time. I > subscribe to multiple lists and I do this quite successfully across them all > using an interface I know, scales well to service many people, and doesn't > require that I learn a new interface to do what I come to a list to do -- > read and participate in discussions. I agree with everything else you said, but this is something that a lot of people don't understand, especially those who grew up doing everything on the Web. I live a huge chunk of my life in my mail client (which happens to be my editor as well). It's scripted, heavily customized, and integrated with other things. I do task management with Org mode, which integrates simply but well enough with Gnus. I can use my editor keybindings and such when composing messages. The same goes with my IRC client. I never have to leave home, if you will. Contrast that with websites: if I have to write anything substantial, I often have to write it in my editor first and paste it in. Many of us hackers don't care for flashy interfaces; we'd rather use the tools we've invested our lives into and know well. Tools that can compose and work well in pipelines. Trying to use interfaces that reinvent the wheel poorly is painful. And let's not be fooled---these are programs. Especially when they're heavy on JavaScript. There's no difference between this and someone asking me to download Foo and put my Emacs toy away, as cute as it is. But I know that many people don't feel that way. I have coworkers that think I'm crazy (respectfully so). And I think they're crazy too. ;) Admittedly, using your own tools is a large barrier to entry---my tools are useful because I've spent a great deal of time learning and researching and customizing. And now I can reuse them for everything. For your average user looking to get into activism, who may not even be a programmer, that's a bit different. It's easier to say "here's your single tool (Web)---go use it". There are systems that allow for a level of integration (e.g. mailing lists and forums). But they're often treated as fallbacks---as second-class citizens. They might provide a subset of features; it leaves certain members of the community out---those who want to use their own tools. I haven't used Discourse. I do see "mailing list support"; maybe that's a good sign. But one of the phrases at the top of the features page is "[w]e're reimagining what a modern discussion platform should be". Many of us don't want to see it reimagined. That's the opposite of what many want. Trying to strike a balance isn't a bad thing if that's the audience we're looking to attract. But it's difficult, and something I struggle with a great deal. -- Mike Gerwitz Free Software Hacker+Activist | GNU Maintainer & Volunteer GPG: D6E9 B930 028A 6C38 F43B 2388 FEF6 3574 5E6F 6D05 https://mikegerwitz.com _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss