Thanks for the responses, guys. So far I have developed big PHP apps with the Zend Framework, and I found the apps quite manageable. Yes, it requires some careful planning to not end up with a big mess of undocumented code, but so far we always got there ;)
I think I will look into the "Programming in Scala" Book to get an overview of Scala, then the Lift Book. I think it will all come to me when I develop a small app. Thanks for all your feedback, it's really exciting to get into this new language. I will stick around and let you know how I progress. Anyways, you guys are an amazing help. I really appreciate that. Erik On Mar 17, 4:45 pm, Derek Chen-Becker <dchenbec...@gmail.com> wrote: > Over the years I've written a fair amount of PHP code for in-house > applications (enterprise ticket tracking system, network equipment > management, etc) and the experience has generally not been great. I think > PHP functions very well for compact, well-defined apps, but the lack of > structure in the PHP libraries ends up being a burden to non-trivial > projects IMHO. In particular, the library is inconsistent and often > incoherent. As an example, compare database access (pretty common > functionality) in PHP vs Java. One app I wrote in PHP started out running > against MySQL and then later needed to change to SQL Server. What would have > been a simple database URL change (and replacing a jar file) in Java was a > non-trivial search and replace of code throughout the app. I seem to > remember there also being some functions that didn't correlate between the > two driver types. In short, it was a very painful experience. I know that > Pear and some other facades have been developed to make this more > transparent, but overall I still feel like the library doesn't have an > overarching theme. It's more a whole lot of bits and pieces stitched > together. > > Another advantage that Lift has, being built atop the JVM, is full access to > all Java libs, and the simplicity of adding libraries as needed. If I need > to add SNMP support to my Lift app (network equipment), I just drop the jar > file in. To add SNMP to PHP I had to compile a whole slew of libraries and > recompile the PHP module. On a similar vein, the ecosystem of Java libraries > is (in my estimation) at least an order of magnitude larger and more mature > than for what's out there for PHP. > > Finally, and most importantly, the "view-first" structure of Lift is huge. > It's difficult to overstate how much this can help improve code organization > and page structure. Essentially, you're writing a whole bunch of little > components in Scala and then composing them using pure XML templates. > Templates can embed other templates, and can embed themselves into other > templates as well, so you have incredible flexibility in how you lay things > out while keeping things fairly simple. The ability to keep your code and > presentation layer stuff in small, easily digestible chunks is what will > keep you and your team sane when you tackle big projects. Of course, you can > do this in PHP as well, but with Lift the capability is an integral part of > the overall design. > > You might want to take a look at our demo app for the book: > > http://github.com/tjweir/pocketchangeapp/tree/master > > It covers a lot of Liftisms (not all), and I'd be happy to answer any > questions you have about it. > > Derek > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 7:29 PM, Charles F. Munat <c...@munat.com> wrote: > > > > > PHP is a language that's easy to learn thus easy to get started with. > > But down the road, that ease comes with a steep price unless you are > > very disciplined about establishing protocols for coding and sticking to > > them. It is very easy to end up with unmaintainable spaghetti code. I > > speak from painful experience. > > > PHP grew up by aggregation, thus it has an odd mixture of syntax and > > conventions, some from Perl, many from other languages. Very little is > > consistent. Not surprising from a language originally called "personal > > home page" -- though PHP coders don't like to be reminded of that. > > > In short, PHP is fine for small sites and quick prototyping, or solving > > some minor problem, but I wouldn't recommend it for anything serious. > > Yes, I know that Facebook and many other big enterprise apps are written > > in PHP, but just because it's possible doesn't make it wise. > > > Ruby and Python are dynamically-typed languages that typically run in an > > interpreter. Ruby in particular is very open, providing unwary coders > > with more than enough rope to hang themselves. They have very different > > styles. If I were doing it all over again and choosing between the two, > > I'd probably choose Python. I think it has more staying power (not least > > because of Google). And there are some very interesting frameworks > > available. > > > Java is a powerful, statically-typed language that is compiled into > > byte-code and run in a virtual machine. (C# is Microsoft's rip of Java > > after they lost a lawsuit. In many ways it's a better language, but when > > you start later and can learn from the mistakes of your competition, > > then that helps.) Java is fine if you are doing enterprise work and you > > have a team of programmers and deep pockets. But the amount of > > configuration and boilerplate code is absurd (thought slowly improving). > > The sad thing is that the JVM rocks. It's solid and fast. Would that we > > could take advantage of this without all the Java boilerplate. > > > Enter Scala. Scala does essentially what C# tried to do, but goes one > > better (thus F#). Not only does it compile into Java byte code, but it > > is a hybrid functional and objected-oriented language, so you get the > > best of both worlds (or the worst, depending on your viewpoint). And > > Scala learned from Java's mistakes. Boilerplate is significantly > > reduced. Best of all, you can use the Java libraries and even mix Java > > and Scala, so we don't have to wait another five years for Scala to > > mature. We can get all the power of Java and eliminate most of the hassle. > > > I'd be remiss if I didn't mention some other options you should look at. > > I think that the abandonment of Smalltalk by its biggest backer is a bad > > sign, but it's a very cool language. Erlang has some great > > possibilities. And there are plenty of others. > > > Scala, like Ruby, Python, Java, and PHP is a programming language. You > > can write any kind of program in it, including command line executables > > and GUI desktop applications. You can even program for Android in Scala. > > > Lift, in contrast, is a web development framework. It is a tool for > > building websites. Period. (Well, web services, too, but that's a kind > > of website.) You don't use Lift to build a desktop app. The equivalents > > in other languages are (among others) Rails and Merb in Ruby, Django and > > TurboGears in Python, Seaside in Smalltalk, etc. > > > The reason you are probably confused is that there aren't to my > > knowledge many very mature web development frameworks in PHP. I know > > they're out there, but they haven't made much of a splash yet. So your > > experience is probably just writing code in PHP and presto! You have a > > website. > > > With Lift it's very different. You use Maven -- a project management > > tool that can build your project, package it, run tests, handle > > dependencies, and much more -- to create your basic website. Maven sets > > up a specific directory structure which you must follow (you can change > > it possibly, but it's not worth it). Then you build the pieces of the > > site, placing the code in the appropriate places. Lift handles all the > > hard work of getting the request from the user and sending the response > > back. It does this by working through the "servlet container" -- an > > application that serves web pages written in Java (or Scala). I am > > greatly oversimplifying, but this is all you need to know for now. > > > Lift uses a modified MVC (model-view-controller) architecture. > > Generally, you save your data in a back end database as objects (using > > an "object-relational mapper" such as Lift's Mapper or JPA). When these > > objects are pulled back out and instantiated in memory, that is pretty > > much your "model" (that and some business logic). The view is what gets > > sent back to the user, after it has been populated with data from the > > model. The controller acts as the go-between between the view and the > > model. > > > In traditional MVC systems, the request comes into the controller, which > > accesses the model as necessary and then fills in the view and sends the > > response off to the user. In Lift, this has been shifted around into a > > "view-first" approach. First, the view is selected, then the view calls > > one or more "snippets" (lightweight controllers), which negotiate as > > necessary with the model and return XML to the view to be re-integrated > > with the view's XML. (I say XML, but typically it's XHTML, a dialect of > > XML.) > > > So you use Maven to create the structure. Then you add XHTML to your > > views. When you need to do some kind of programming logic (which you > > *cannot* do in your views in Lift, unlike most other frameworks), you > > create a snippet and put your logic there. If you need to persist data, > > you have the snippets communicate with a database (or equivalent) to > > save the data. > > > Hope that helps. Others can give you much more detailed explanations on > > how exactly things work. > > > I will say this, though. Put in the time to learn a framework like Lift, > > and you will *never* go back to PHP. But it will be work to learn Lift. > > There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. > > > Good luck, > > > Chas. > > > erik.fris...@googlemail.com wrote: > > > Thanks for the links, guys. I really appreciate it. > > > > To be totally honest, I just by luck found out that Lift even existed; > > > John Resig did a Tweet that involved a Chat Application using Lift and > > > Web Sockets. So I searched for Lift and found the framework. And since > > > I make it a habit to learn something new every day for at least an > > > hour, I decided to dive right in. After the "Getting Started", I am > > > really intrigued. But I am, as I said, coming from a strict PHP > > > background. I am, for example, totally unable to tell Lift and Scala > > > apart. > > > > My goal so far is to get knee-deep into Scala and Lift. For work I > > > develop high scalability web apps, and I feel like Lift and Scala fit > > > right in there. I guess I want to figure out how much of a > > > productivity boost I can get from Lift, and if I can do things with > > > Lift that are not even possible with PHP. > > > > I > > ... > > read more » --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lift" group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
