Richard - I don't think repeating myself or saying the same things a different way will be useful. So I'll just stop now.
- Paul On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 6:22 PM Richard Panetta <richardpane...@gmail.com> wrote: > Sorry Paul, you are contradicting yourself here. You say we need to act > immediately, you rushed this motion without any bylaws on paper out because > action needed to be taken now by your own words. Yet you are talking about > small steps here and do not want to ban all fossil fuel use. You will allow > propane and wood fires which are mostly for esthetics than heat. If you do > not wish to ban all then how much of a crisis do you really think this is? > > This is becoming a trend in town. It seems residents construct poorly > written and conceived motions thinking that since a majority in town feel > the same way you can get away with doing so. > > > > On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 5:29 PM Paul Shorb <paul.sh...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Dennis - >> 1. You misunderstand the proposal if you think its main motivation or >> justification is to benefit the builders or residents in future new >> buildings. It should be clear from the slides we shared in our two webinars >> and at Town Meeting that the main motivation is to take one small, initial >> step out of many that we need to take to slow down climate change. It just >> happens, so it was worth mentioning, that this small initial step has some >> cost advantages for builders and owners albeit. But as I >> mentioned elsewhere today on LT, I don't trust all builders to respond >> immediately to the modest cost delta, so a mandate is warranted. It's ECON >> 101 that the free market fails to produce the best result, and government >> controls layered on top of free market mechanisms produce a better result, >> in the case of major "negative externalities" associated with >> self-interested decisions - right? >> >> 2. Do you read my posts that respond to yours? I feel like I responded to >> this point earlier. >> It's uncontested that fossil fuels have powered great economic growth >> which has lifted many out of poverty. However, if you think that trend line >> can continue so happily, you are ignoring the evidence about climate >> change. The good news is that human ingenuity has already come up with most >> of what we need to stop relying on fossil fuels (wind, solar, heat pumps, >> etc.) with more on the way (better energy storage, "green" hydrogen, new >> forms of nuclear, etc.) The problem is how fast we need to make the switch >> - that's going to require concerted social and political action. >> >> - Paul >> >> On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 3:20 PM Dennis Liu <bigheadden...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> With all due respect: >>> >>> >>> >>> 1. If it is true, as has been asserted, that building your new home >>> to be all-electric “will not make the more expensive to build or >>> operate”, >>> then *we would not need a law to force people to do so*. One cannot >>> have it both ways! If X is actually better for folks, then one would not >>> need a law to force folks to do X! Even a casual reader of history will >>> read about those in government who cry, “*the foolish people are >>> just ignorant, and don’t see what’s good for them; we are just doing this >>> on their behalf, forcing them to undertake what will be more beneficial >>> for >>> them! Don’t you get it? We know better than you do!*” >>> >>> Similarly, let us not forget that it’s not just about the money. >>> Choosing X instead of Y can be driven not just be money, but by other >>> benefits. Some folks might prefer certain attributes of Y, even if Y >>> might >>> cost less. As one example – if you live in a 3,000 sq foot house, you >>> would almost certainly save money if you lived in a 2,000 sq ft house – >>> so >>> why would you want to live in the bigger house? You might save money by >>> driving a Prius or a Tesla, so why shouldn’t we force people to only buy >>> those vehicles? >>> >>> Is it so hard to see that individuals can make the best decisions >>> for themselves, to decide what’s in their best interests? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 1. *“Climate justice is racial justice?” *Again, with all due >>> respect, this is just . . . man, I lack the words. So we are clear – >>> thanks to the growth of free-market (ish) economics in developing nations >>> over the last three decades, primarily in China and India but also other >>> developing countries, *OVER A BILLION PEOPLE HAVE CLIMBED OUT OF >>> EXTREME POVERTY*. It’s an amazing feat! And one of the biggest >>> drivers of that climb out of poverty – *THE AVAILABILITY OF >>> AFFORDABLE ENERGY, POWERED BY FOSSIL FUELS*. >>> >>> Yes, read that again. Improved agriculture, the growth of >>> manufacturing, expanding free trade, migration from rural to urban areas >>> have helped billions of people climb out of horrible, subsistence-level >>> (or >>> below!!!) living. The middle-class is explosively growing. What drives >>> all of that? Affordable, available energy. Countless families have >>> transitioned out of subsistence farming, with heating and cooking using >>> wood or dung and resulting in terrible casualties from lung illnesses, >>> thanks to the availability of gas-powered machinery and available >>> electric >>> grids. >>> >>> The sheer . . . well, I won’t label it, but I will say that it >>> astonishes me what folks living in the 1% in affluent American suburbs >>> (and >>> make no mistakes, if you’re a working adult in Lincoln, you’re almost >>> certainly in the global 1%; you just need $34k in annual income) will >>> make >>> arguments on behalf of the ”oppressed”, and make claims of “racial >>> justice”, *WHILE TRYING TO ELIMINATE THAT WHICH HELPED PROPEL MORE >>> THAN A BILLION PEOPLE OUT OF POVERTY*: affordable energy powered >>> by, yes, fossil fuels. >>> >>> The primary reason why making these little symbolic, >>> virtue-signaling gestures in rich American suburbs will have zero >>> measurable impact on climate gas emissions is because America got rich by >>> burning lots of coal and oil; now China and India are doing the same >>> thing, >>> lifting billions of poverty, thanks to burning lots of coal and oil. Who >>> the heck are we to tell China and India, “hey, you guys missed the boat, >>> you need to stop producing that critically needed energy, and immiserate >>> your people!” >>> >>> Want **real** justice for the poor and oppressed around the globe? >>> Stand by and let them climb out of poverty in the same way America did, >>> starting a century ago, and focus instead on transitioning **mass** >>> energy production to natural gas and nuclear, keep working on renewable >>> energy, and **let human ingenuity research ways of mitigating the >>> effects of climate change and even turning it back through terraforming >>> measures.** >>> >>> https://ourworldindata.org/extreme-poverty >>> >>> >>> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/02/world/global-poverty-united-nations.html#:~:text=By%202015%2C%20the%20share%20of,extreme%20poverty%2C%20surpassing%20the%20goal >>> . >>> >>> >>> >>> I’m just . . . at a loss for more words. >>> >>> >>> >>> --Dennis >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Lincoln <lincoln-boun...@lincolntalk.org> *On Behalf Of *Paul >>> Shorb >>> *Sent:* Sunday, March 27, 2022 2:50 PM >>> *To:* <lincoln@lincolntalk.org> <lincoln@lincolntalk.org> >>> *Subject:* Re: [LincolnTalk] Town meeting Article 40/31 >>> >>> >>> >>> I would like to respond to some recent posts here that seem to critique >>> a move towards fossil-fuel-free homes as an expensive luxury for >>> high-minded hypocrites who blissfully ignore adverse cost impacts on those >>> economically less well-off. Here are some relevant facts that may be of >>> interest to LT readers. >>> >>> >>> >>> Requiring new homes to be all-electric will not make them more expensive >>> to build or operate. In fact, due to the almost miraculous energy >>> efficiency of modern heat pumps, they tend to be LESS expensive to operate, >>> thereby benefiting not only high-end homeowners but also less-affluent >>> renters. (Not to mention the health benefits of cleaner indoor air.) A >>> recent state study show the cost benefits are even better for multi-family >>> housing than for single family homes. >>> >>> >>> >>> All-electric homes are not required to have an emergency generator. >>> Whether someone wants to have an emergency generator is a personal choice; >>> many homes powered by fossil fuels choose to have one. >>> We mention emergency generators to underscore that we expect they would >>> still be allowed as an option, when and if Lincoln adopts a bylaw. Even if >>> you assume a generator to be an additional cost associated with an >>> all-electric house, that likely will be offset by reduced operating costs. >>> >>> >>> >>> With regard to DIE, it's hard to come up with something with more >>> disparate impact on people of color than our current fossil-fuel economy >>> and the climate change it is causing. >>> >>> In America it typically is lower-income people - often people of color - >>> who live closest to fossil fuel extraction areas, fuel refineries, power >>> plants, and areas thickest with vehicle exhaust fumes, and who thereby >>> suffer the most from the local pollution effects. >>> >>> Around the world, it is regions populated mainly by black and brown >>> people that are getting hit the hardest by the many impacts of climate >>> change. Those are the people who are most at risk of being pushed back into >>> poverty and worse by extreme weather events, droughts, food shortages, and >>> desperate migration attempts and ensuing political strife - even though >>> they have done much less than the more developed, majority-white nations >>> have done to cause the current climate crisis. >>> >>> That's why it is rightly said that "climate justice is racial justice". >>> >>> >>> >>> - Paul Shorb >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 1:16 PM Stephanie Smoot < >>> stephanieesm...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> I found irony that they were adding all these programs but a waiting >>> list for senior tax work off spaces! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 1:09 PM Richard Panetta < >>> richardpane...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> So did anyone else find any irony in a report given about inclusion >>> diversity equity and anti racism then the very next article the presenting >>> sponsor when questioned about losing electricity stated well you can JUST >>> get a propane generator for those needs. Never mind a good generator can >>> cost $5000 plus along with the yearly costs of the tank and propane. Just >>> in case your non fossil fuel home loses power. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >>> To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. >>> Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/. >>> Browse the archives at >>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >>> Change your subscription settings at >>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> *Stephanie Smoot* >>> >>> >>> >>> 857 368-9175 work >>> >>> 781 941-6842 personal cell >>> >>> *617 595-5217 *work cell >>> >>> 126 Chestnut Circle >>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/126+Chestnut+Circle+Lincoln,+MA+01773?entry=gmail&source=g> >>> >>> Lincoln, MA 01773 >>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/126+Chestnut+Circle+Lincoln,+MA+01773?entry=gmail&source=g> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >>> To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. >>> Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/. >>> Browse the archives at >>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >>> Change your subscription settings at >>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >>> >>> -- >> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >> To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. >> Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/. >> Browse the archives at >> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >> Change your subscription settings at >> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >> >>
-- The LincolnTalk mailing list. To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/. Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.
