I've been following this thread with interest. Having done a couple of CBA's for similar ideas, its unlikely that the old mainframe, regardless of what it is, including the 7060's, competes with a VMWARE like configuration running on commodity hardware like an Intel box. I know of several production SAAS (Software as a service) offerings relying on this type technology. The 7060 just has not got the gas to do what you want.
The cost drivers that determine the outcome are hardware maintenance, CKD versus FBA dasd, power, and system programming complexity. IBM's university initiative might be a better, i.e. less expensive, path if you want to introduce IOCP to teenagers. There is a reason old mainframes have low resale values; they are financial boat anchors. Good luck. Edward Long --- On Wed, 3/25/09, John Summerfield <deb...@herakles.homelinux.org> wrote: > From: John Summerfield <deb...@herakles.homelinux.org> > Subject: Re: Old IBM Mainframe - Still Useful? > To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU > Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009, 6:44 AM > Andrew Wiley wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 8:23 PM, John Summerfield < > > deb...@herakles.homelinux.org> wrote: > > >> > >> What kind of "terminal" equipment will > they be using? > > > > > > Students would access their VM's through SSH. > > > >> > >> 3. What would they be doing? > >>> Each VM will probably have a webserver hosting > SVN and Trac, there will > >>> probably be some sort of build system as well, > and students will be > >>> periodically running network server code to > test stability and allow a > >>> centralized testing location for wider scale > applications. > >>> > >> Have you explored the use of virtual servers in > Apache? It's possible to > >> host many websites on a single copy of a single OS > on a single computer > >> using a single IP address. > > > > > > This is true, but I'm really wanting to have > students' code isolated so if a > > prankster runs a forkbomb or some malicious code, > everything else keeps > > working. There's also more educational value in > giving each project a VM; > > hopefully it would at least teach basic linux shell > commands. It's still > > debatable whether I should have multiple webservers or > one though... I'll > > have to think about that. > > > > > >> > >> Why is S/390 the right tool for the job? > >> > > > > Mostly the price, although I admit it's a poor > justification. I'm also > > hoping that using it would bring more stability than > our current solution. > > It would also (hopefully) scale better as the program > grows, which is > > definitely happening. We need to upgrade somehow, and > this offer came at the > > right time. > > There's also the benefit of exposing students to > the idea that mainframes > > are still alive and useful (most textbooks these days > cite mainframes as an > > example of obselete technology that existed before > PC's, unfortunately), > > and, if possible, it would let me offer mainframe > programming as an > > independent study course. > > Okay, here is what I think. > > Count the cost. > Do you get a full, working system? If not, there are extra > costs for the > bits that are missing. > > Depending on the capabilities of your particular machine, > you will have > some number of essentially discrete systems (your LPARs). I > gather any > hardware reconfiguration you do involves pinching a bit off > one machine > to give it to another. Whether it's enough is for you > to judge. > > Who is going to do the reconfiguration management? > > Does this system have special power requirements? What > about environmentals? > > What will be the cost of transporting the system and doing > the initial > installation? > > What have I forgotten? > > > There is a case for a central server to coordinate > students' work. I am > not convinced that a mainframe, even a free one, is the > best tool for > the job. > > For any programming students might do, it makes not a jot > of difference > whether they do it on a PC running Linux or a mainframe > running Linux, > the tools are the same. Since you said the students would > be connecting > via ssh, I expect they already have PCs. The only Windows > ssh client I > have used is putty, and while I will continue to use it, I > don't like it > that well. To do the job properly, one needs Linux (or, I > expect one of > the BSDs or a real Unix). If installing Linux on the > student PCs' > hardware is frowned on, how about Linux inside VirtualBox > (my current > favourite) or one of the MS free offerings. > > This might give the students the same kind of setup so many > free > software hackers have, their own PC and a central > repository. > > This does not preclude students from using virtual > mainframes (hercules) > and checking out Linux on that. > > It seems to me that, if you want the students to learn to > appreciate the > benefits of a mainframe, you really need a full set of > software too, > including representatives of the VM, OS and DOS families. > While there > are free versions (I think I found VM on three 3330 images > somewhere, > and I have MVS 3.08 around here someplace), they're > pretty archaic. > > If all you have is Linux running on the bare metal on a > mainframe, > there's little to distinguish it favourably from a PC. > > > > > > -- > > Cheers > John > > -- spambait > 1aaaa...@coco.merseine.nu z1aaaa...@coco.merseine.nu > -- Advice > http://webfoot.com/advice/email.top.php > http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html > http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375 > > You cannot reply off-list:-) > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access > instructions, > send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO > LINUX-390 or visit > http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
