Linux-Advocacy Digest #511, Volume #25 Sun, 5 Mar 00 13:13:17 EST
Contents:
Re: Linux Demo Day a letdown (Terry Porter)
Re: Linux Demo Day a letdown (Terry Porter)
Re: BSD & Linux (Bryan Bursey)
Re: Linux Demo Day a letdown (Terry Porter)
Re: My Windows 2000 experience ("Christopher Smith")
Re: Linux Demo Day a letdown (Terry Porter)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
Subject: Re: Linux Demo Day a letdown
Reply-To: No-Spam
Date: 6 Mar 2000 01:26:48 +0800
On Fri, 03 Mar 2000 20:47:52 GMT, Gooba <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This is interesting. Question my credibility because I question yours? I
>make no claims to anything which need be doubted.
I doubt much of you, your words and your opinion "Gooba".
>
>> As your a previously unseen, anonymous poster, I urge any readers to
>consider
>> the fact that you have no established credibility at all, "Gooba".
>>
>> >Okay, Terry, you've made it abundantly clear how repulsive you want to
>sound
Repulsive ? You're a winner in the debating stakes, "Gooba" no doubt about it.
>> Interpret it as you wish, your words, ...your opinion.
>
>You have done your best to insult someone who was commenting on a badly
>presented demonstration.
No I haven't, I merley stated a different view/opinion of the Linux world
to him, you're the one who uses emotionally loaded, derogatery terms.
> This is either intentionally repulsive, or
>accidentally, but in either instance it was in bad taste and uncalled for
>behaviour.
As a thought policeman "Gooba" you suck, ..... badly.
>
>>
>> >and how you likewise want to sounds like Mr. Generic Linux User. I very
>much
>> >doubt however the truth of these notions.
>> Fell free to doubt as mich as you wish, its a free world.
>>
>
>Aye, mostly, it is free. However, your attack on someone offering a critique
>of a bad demo indicates your desire to shut down those who would disagree
>with you on the smallest detail.
This is really quite sad, my "attack", was no more than my right to have a
different opinion, but you can't see that Gooba, can you ?
> He had no problem with Linux beyond that of
>any new Linux user, he only said that the presentation went very badly.
He felt it went badly, so what ???????
>
>> > You're just doing everything
>> >possible to be a stereotypical elitist jerk.
>> Good emotionally loaded insults, got any more ?
>>
>
>I was giving my interpretation of your intention. Nothing more or less.
Your words are critical and emotionally loaded, you offer nothing here, of any
great interest, nothing more, nothing less.
> You
>were obviously trying to be a jerk, and doing it in a manner stereotypical
>of the unnecessary zealotry that needs to be avoided. You look bad when you
>insult people for disagreeing with you, you really do.
If I need your opinion of how you see my words, Gooba, I will ask.
Your unsolicited opinion of me, is wasted.
>
>> >If indeed there is any truth to your claims, then you were begging for
>> >someone to argue with you.
>> Argue away, ..I'm yer Huckleberry!
>>
>> >
>> >Your installations went smoothly because you had a particular collection
>of
>> >hardware and software which worked well together.
>> Thats true, however as it happened I *did not* choose any of my hardware
>for
>> Linux, either in 1993, or in 1997. However it IS a good idea to do so.
>>
>> Same for Windows etc.
>>
>
>I did not imply that you did, I only stated that by some cirrcumstance you
>wound up with the right combinations of factors which lead to smooth
>installs.
Do you actually have a point to make here ?
>
>> > That's all. Linux is
>> >notoriously choosy about what stuff is supported.
>> Bullshit.
>>
>
>Refer to alt.os.linux.
Why ?
If you like that group, you read it.
> Check out how many posts there are regarding the
>shaky SBLive! support. It's a mainstream card that is very popular and not
>yet fully and reliably supported. I'd say any program or OS that doesn't
>support a brand-name card is pretty choosy. Even if support is coming, my
>point is not undermined by that fact because it isn't here yet.
You have no point, SBLive is a proprietary card, let SB write the driver,
you're really clutching at straws here, and I'm far from impressed.
They do it for Windows, let them do it for Linux. If they want to loose sales
that's their problem.
>
>> > I'm a user of Linux and
>> Ok ..... if you *say* so.
>>
>
>One way or another, it doesn't matter much whether I use Linux or not.
Sure it does, you "claim" to like and use Linux, yet you don't know much about
it, you sound like a wintroll to me.
> You
>presented yourself in a very bad light and I chose to comment on it.
No, you chose to say you felt I did present myself in a very bad light, I
rejected this, based on your anonymous email account, your lack of credibility
and your lack of Linux knowledge.
> I could
>be a Solaris, Windows 9x/NT, DOS or BSD user and I'd have said the same to
>you.
You could be many things, but to me your just a troll.
>
>> >that's cool by me. I can choose my hardware based on what works with the
>> >software I want to run.
>> So does anyone else if they are wise.
>>
>
>You can't expect all new users to be "wise".
I dont.
> That's not how "new" works. I'm
>sure when you first got your hands on a computer you pored over every manual
>and detail of the system and as a result have never had any problem, never
>misconfigured anything, and have never written a buggy program because you
>started out being "wise".
You have no clue what I did, do, or have done.
> Gimme a break. This is the elitist nonsense that
>has to stop.
Sadly, until you're supreme dictator of the known universe, we will all do as
we see fit.
>
>> >
>> >Linux is not Windows. That statement is pretty obvious isn't it?
>> Is it ? You tell us ?
>>
>
>I already did tell you.
So you did.
>
>> > But it's
>> >not warranted in this context.
>> Only in your opinion.
>>
>
>The post you replied to was not about where Linux stands in relation to
>Windows.
Yes it was, in part.
> It was only about a crappy presentation of Linux.
It was about a Linux newbies opinion of a so called crappy presentation.
The presenters actually did something, he was critical, and talk is cheap.
> You felt the need
>to clarify for us that Linux and Windows are different things.
Yes I did, and will continue to do so.
>
>> > Linux is competing with Windows.
>> No its not.
>>
>
>Again, if they run on the same hardware, are run by the same pool of users
>(i.e. the world population of computer users) and can't be run at the same
>time on the same hardware under normal circumstances, then some sort of
>competition is going on.
No, wrong again. There is no competition.
> For every computer that is currently running Linux,
>that is, currently booted into that OS, that's a machine that *isn't*
>running Windows.
Excellent logic, but there is still *no* competition.
>
>> > It may not
>> >be agressively competing with Windows, but it is competing. A giraffe and
>an
>> >elephant compete for the same waterhole, how often do you see them fight?
>> Linux and Windows aren't competing for anything.
>>
>
>Stick your head in the ground if you really like,
Ahh now I'm a ostrich ?
> but until Linux and
>Windows are as separate as Windows and Mac OS, they will be in direct
>competition for resources. In this case those resources are users, machines
>and developers. Users and developers don't have the sort of mutual
>exclusivity that a machine does, but they will have a preferred OS.
What are you smoking Gooba, I cant understand this mishmash ?
>
>> >Are you really cool with the idea of being the only remaining Linux user
>in
>> >the world?
>> Are you really serious ?
>>
>
>This is an extreme example, but it is valid. Should the Linux community as a
>whole start to fail,
I just have one comment here,
BWAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHahahahahahahahahahahahah !!!!!
Fail ?????????
Should hell freeze over and Gooba get a clue, then perhaps the Linux community
may "fail", but I wouldnt hold my breath.
> there will be fewer developers. Less developers leads
>to less coding. Less coding means less innovation, bug fixes, etc. Linux can
>stay where it is with even one user, but it can't advance anymore with a
>single user.
You still have absolutely ****NO**** idea Gooba.
Linux developers, develop for the love of developing, may I remind you of
something you don't seem to have realised yet ?
Linux is *not* Windows!!
>
>Before you jump in about Linux being a single developer, remember he only
>started this thing. It wouldn't be where it is now without contributions
>from other parties.
Absolutely, this is the strength of Linux, and puts paid to preposterous
assertions like yours, that Linux may "fail".
>
>> > Having to code new drivers for yourself?
>> Sure
>> > Reverse engineer or
>> If needed, np.
>>
>
>You're crazier than I thought.
Then expand your horizons ?
> Do you honestly expect to be able to reverse
>engineer *all* the hardware on your system and write drivers for it all
>without external support or information?
No.
Fortunately I don't have to, many other Linux developers, have done that for
me, and I'm gratefull.
Kudos and many thanks to Linux Developers, I salute you, one and all.
>
>> >apply for licenses for every new piece of hardware?
>> No Free Software does NOT do deals with proprietary information owners.
>> If you had more than a passing introduction with it, you'd know that.
>>
>
>Talk to Daryll Strauss who brought us support of the 3Dfx chipsets. Free
>software DOES do deals with proprietary information owners.
Incorrect Free Software does not.
Your thinking of commercial ventures, who do this. Please read the GNU
manifesto, at least *once*.
> It does so to
>its own ends, but it still does deal with them.
Nope, it doesnt.
>
>> > I think not, this is why
>> >Linux needs to compete, it needs a certain base number of
>users/developers
>> >to remain a viable, modern OS.
>> Your totally, completely 100% *incorrect*.
>>
>
>Do you truly believe that Linux will continue to develop at the same pace
>regardless of how small a pool of users it has?
Of course I do, do you actually have any idea how many people develop for Linux
???
> It may run on a back-end
>server that hasn't changed it's hardware for 10 years, but it's not going to
>be the up and coming thing.
So what ?
In 1993 the SB pro was the up and coming thing, Linux ran that card just fine.
Your lamentations are not based on fact, neither are your prophecies of the
Linux future.
>
>By the by, *you're* incorrect.
Hahahahah, feel free to think what you like.
>
>> >
>> >In short, we might not need to attack Windows, but we would do best to
>keep
>> We ????
>>
>
>Yes, we. Like it or not, Linux users are a group, though not necessarily as
>cohesive as would be nice, but we are a group. I am one, so are you.
Please don't put you and I together in any of your fantasies Gooba, you and
I have *nothing* in common.
>Something like humanity, no matter how much you dislike us, you're still one
>of us.
Human you mean, ??
>
>> >an eye on it.
>> >
>> >I would appreciate it if you didn't post anymore.
>> Sorry I don't do requests for Linux newbies or windows trolls.
>>
>
>I'm not a newbie, nor am I a windows troll.
I'll decide for myself thanks.
> You're seeking support for
No I'm not, I couldnt care less if everyone on COLA disagreed with me, you
don't have any idea what I'm doing.
>yourself by calling me names which will trigger people's knee jerk
>reactions.
Hahahah, on COLA ??? Insulting the regulars, wont win you any friends here
Gooba.
Knock it off.
You're a slow learner Gooba, or a fast forgetter, either way, I don't do
requests.
>
>> >For those who don't
>> >realize you're an individual making yourself look bad, you're making
>Linux
>> >users look bad.
>> Hey thats your interpetration. Windows is about ***looks***, Free software
>is
>> about doing, not looks.
>>
>
>In a market, of any sort, first impressions are important.
Linux is not in a market of any sort, Linux is Free Software.
>Whether it be the
>color of the car that catches your eye initially to the body of the woman
>you see across the bar, something has to initially inspire you to look
>deeper.
>If Linux is presented badly, no one is going to investigate further.
Nonsense.
Those interested in superficial things, will only miss out, as always.
The odd looking Citroen, who would want a odd ugly thing like that?
The booring looking, plain lady, who's capacity for love, and affection,
and joy in bed that makes a man believe in goddesses.
The clueless computer user, who can't tell a pretty, and expensive, yet, limited
and buggy os, from the opposite. Yes Gooba, I'm talking about YOU!
>> **** To reach me, use [EMAIL PROTECTED] ****
>> My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux, and has been
>> up 1 week 5 days 10 hours 46 minutes
>> ** homepage http://www.odyssey.apana.org.au/~tjporter **
>
>How odd..a day ago your post said it was up for one day...
>
>
Really, then you orta get that Windows newsreader of your fixed, Gooba, cause
it isn't working correctly.
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** To reach me, use [EMAIL PROTECTED] ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux, and has been
up 2 weeks 14 hours 46 minutes
** homepage http://www.odyssey.apana.org.au/~tjporter **
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
Subject: Re: Linux Demo Day a letdown
Reply-To: No-Spam
Date: 6 Mar 2000 01:29:50 +0800
On Fri, 03 Mar 2000 22:43:35 GMT,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Fri, 03 Mar 2000 20:47:52 GMT, "Gooba" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>>Refer to alt.os.linux. Check out how many posts there are regarding the
>>shaky SBLive! support. It's a mainstream card that is very popular and not
>>yet fully and reliably supported. I'd say any program or OS that doesn't
>>support a brand-name card is pretty choosy. Even if support is coming, my
>>point is not undermined by that fact because it isn't here yet.
>
>It's really pathetic considering that Corel announced an alliance with
>Creative to produce multimedia applications. Typical Linux smoke blowing.
Corel and Creative are commercial companies, Linux is NOT a commercial
company, this critisism is a strawman.
And "pickle_pete" a anonymous troll.
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** To reach me, use [EMAIL PROTECTED] ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux, and has been
up 2 weeks 15 hours 46 minutes
** homepage http://www.odyssey.apana.org.au/~tjporter **
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bryan Bursey)
Crossposted-To:
comp.unix.bsd.386bsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.openbsd.misc
Subject: Re: BSD & Linux
Date: 5 Mar 2000 17:31:22 GMT
Well, mixed in with the unnecessarily vulgar language, are numerous
errors. FreeBSD (and the other BSD's) really ARE UNIX. They were
derived from source released by Berkley. Linux is NOT UNIX. Rather,
it is UNIX-like.
I believe a previous post described their origins quite well.
Bryan
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Joe Siemens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>by wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Today I'm just wondering about various BSDs I've seen mentioned. My
>> company's servers run NetBSD and they run fine. Can someone explain the
>> difference between freebsd, netbsd, openbsd, bsd-lite ? I've also seen
>> 4bsd and bsd4.* mentioned. What are the major variants of BSD today and
>> what are their differences ?
>>
>
>Well, they are both unix. Dammit man, I love them all. I mean, I
>love unix, right? FreeBSD and Linux are both unices. Do you love
>running unix too? If you like unix asmuch as I, you will like
>FreeBSD. I really don't know what to say... People ask me all the
>time which is better, Solaris, FreeBSD, or Linux. Although I strongly
>feel that FreeBSD amd Linux are pseudo-unices (because they're free
>and unix wannabes), it's still much better than that pile of steaming
>shit you call Windows.
>
>Mainly, the differences are that there is only one FreeBSD
>distribution, but there are way too fucking many Linux distros. I
>thought RedHat was for losers, because it does way too much
>hand-holding. AND, RedHat usually dumps too much shit onto my HD.
>With FreeBSD, you get a very good unix without all the frills. RedHat
>always insists on second-guessing what the user wants, and in the
>process, always over-installs, which creates a security hole. (Because
>theere's too many services started in RedHat.)
>
>I like FreeBSD better, because it is a descendent of the original BSD
>code. It seems like Linux' networking is not as good as FreeBSD's,
>because of its BSD TCP/IP stack heritage. Also, FreeBSD is better
>than Linux at football. If you pit the FreeBSD developers against the
>Linux developers, FreeBSD will dominate at football. Of course, I
>feel strongly that the Solaris team could beat both teams, because
>they're both pseudo unices compared to the excellent Solaris. They
>are unix wannabes because they run on Wintel machines.
>
>I went out to a ballpark one time, and I saw 2 teams, FreeBSD, and
>Linux. Linux scored a touchdown early, but FreeBSD's offensive line
>wore down Linux' defense. FreeBSD began to pile up a lot of yards on
>Linux. Then, one of the FreeBSD linebackers sacked Linus Torvalds,
>the Linux QB, and took him out of the game. FreeBSD won the game,
>38-20. It was a blowout.
>
>I really don't know what to say, other than we can sit here and talk
>about it all day and night until we get hoarse, much like the annoying
>bastard commentator Brent Mussburger. In the end, though, the only
>way to find out which team is better is to put on your helmet and
>shoulder pads, and play for each team to find out which team is
>better.
>
>Summary: just do it. Just install FreeBSD, and find out for yourself
>which is better. Oh, and Brent Mussburger is a pussy! Ha ha ha! Oh,
>and Rev. Don Kool is a real cool guy. He knows a lot about unix.
>
>joe kool
--
________________________________
Bryan Bursey, DEng
Dept. of Mechanical Engineering
DalTech (TUNS)
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
Subject: Re: Linux Demo Day a letdown
Reply-To: No-Spam
Date: 6 Mar 2000 01:31:56 +0800
On 4 Mar 2000 01:31:48 GMT, Mark S. Bilk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>The previous post is by "Steve/keymaster" the homophobic
>fundamentalist.
REALLY!!!!
Gasp, what a supprise !
>
>Steve, you said you were going to go away.
Steve is the consumate bullshit artist, and COLA is his life. "Steve" isnt going
away anytime soon.
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** To reach me, use [EMAIL PROTECTED] ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux, and has been
up 2 weeks 15 hours 46 minutes
** homepage http://www.odyssey.apana.org.au/~tjporter **
------------------------------
From: "Christopher Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: My Windows 2000 experience
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 03:31:20 +1000
"Joseph T. Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:89tida$3rc$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy S S Sturrock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> : Here's a question? How good is the compiler that comes with Windows?
>
> LOL! :)
>
> Windows doesn't come with a compiler.
>
> Microsoft's compiler, Visual C++, is fairly good (at least for the
> limited things I've used it for). It's also very expensive. I've
> been told, by those who know the intricacies of Standard C++ better
> than I do, that it has rather unique ways of interpreting the
> Standard. As far as I know it does fine for "straight" C or the
> pre-Standard C++ dialect spoken by most Windows/MFC/ATL/COM
> programmers.
>
> The folks on comp.lang.c and .c++ would probably be able to give
> better feedback than I can, since most of the 'Doze programming I do,
> I do, per my employer's mandate, in that most vile of nonscalable,
> non-object-oriented languages, *shudder* Visual Basic. (Which is
> actually not bad for creating small database front-ends and other apps
> of limited size and complexity, but nonetheless remains, as it always
> has been, a total pain in the ass for building anything of nontrivial
> size.)
Which is hardly surprising given it was never *meant* for building anything
of non trivial size.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
Subject: Re: Linux Demo Day a letdown
Reply-To: No-Spam
Date: 6 Mar 2000 01:43:58 +0800
On Sat, 04 Mar 2000 02:13:29 GMT, Gooba <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Before I get pegged for being with one "wrong" group or another, I'd
>like to say up front this is not where I was headed with this. I'm a Windows
>user, it's great for my games, I'm a Linux user, I just like it pretty much
>all around.
Your preferences and direction are already quite clear to me, "Gooba".
>
> We are all well aware that netscape's current incarnation pretty much
>bites.
It bites, and sucks.
> KDE and Gnome are both front-ends to make things easier, which is not
>necessarily a bad thing. Those who want to do their stuff at the CLI are
>welcome to do so.
This GUI/CLI argument is a joke to me, whats a Xterm Gooba, any idea ?
> Equally so those who like a GUI. Gnome crashes, but it's
>pretty cool when it doesn't.
Blackbox has never crashed on me, nor has WindowMaker and several other WM's.
>
> As far as GUI's Linux is playing catch-up to Windows.
I think Windows GUI, is about as interesting as wet cardboard, and as useful.
> Windows however
>should not even have to compete in terms of stability since it *should* be
>completely stable on any supported hardware. When they claim total support
>for who knows how many devices, that should mean they have total support for
>those devices. Windows 95/98 is unstable. For a home user, a reboot once or
>twice a day is not an issue. I haven't used NT and don't intend to, it has a
>pretty steep license fee which leaves me unable to even try it. Yes, I
>understand that Windows 95/98 OEM fees are included in the cost of the
>computer, but the difference between something I have for zero cost beyond
>what I've already spent and something which may or may not be marginally
>better for my usage for the price they're asking makes it a no brainer.
>
> As for performance, if you want to argue that the average home user
>won't see a difference, then why do you argue that there is a difference? If
>they will see the difference, then why argue about the difference? If it's
>there, that's just fact. If it's not, that also is just a fact. Neither way
>is it arguable. The only argument left is what the developers are doing to
>bring the lower score up.
>
> Again, I urge that those who really would like Linux to succeed,
>concentrate on success.
Gooba, Linux is ALREADY a outstanding success, present tense!
> MS's failings or successes are all fine and dandy as
>far as we're concerned as long as Linux does what we need it to and Windows
>doesn't, there isn't "that kind" of competition. The system, any system,
>that does what you need it to do for a price you're willing to pay is the
>hands-down winner. No need to btich about what the other guy is or isn't
>doing, chances are he's doing it for his own reasons and your judgement
>(never spell this one right...but I know there are those who will notice so
>I'll just point it out now and get that all over with) doesn't matter either
>way.
>
> Bottom line. I'm not a Linux hater, nor a zealot. I don't think Windows
>is all it should be after this long a development period, and I do believe
>I'm paying too much for a system which doesn't give me all the freedom I'd
>like to have. I don't know anyone who hasn't griped about the cost of
>Windows at one time or another, even the most devoted aren't always pleased.
>Don't flame me because someone took my post out of context and wants it to
>be Pro-Windows. If anything, I'm Pro-Choice.
>
You sound it in this post.
>
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** To reach me, use [EMAIL PROTECTED] ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux, and has been
up 2 weeks 15 hours 46 minutes
** homepage http://www.odyssey.apana.org.au/~tjporter **
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