Linux-Advocacy Digest #674, Volume #25 Fri, 17 Mar 00 18:13:12 EST
Contents:
Re: An Illuminating Anecdote (abraxas)
Re: An Illuminating Anecdote ("Erik Funkenbusch")
Re: Why not Darwin AND Linux rather than Darwin OR Linux? (was Re:Darwin or Linux
(JEDIDIAH)
Re: Linux based software to US government? ("Norman K. Scherer")
Re: Salary? (Greg Yantz)
Re: An Illuminating Anecdote (abraxas)
Re: Why not Darwin AND Linux rather than Darwin OR Linux? (was Re: Darwin or Linux
(JEDIDIAH)
Re: Bsd and Linux (mr_organic)
Re: Why not Darwin AND Linux rather than Darwin OR Linux? (was (Arun Gupta)
CD-ROM question (MerefBast)
Re: Salary? (Vilmos Soti)
Re: Why not Darwin AND Linux rather than Darwin OR Linux? (was Re:Darwin or Linux
(Rex Riley)
Re: A pox on the penguin? (Linux Virus Epidemic) (Gary Hallock)
Re: An Illuminating Anecdote (B'ichela)
Re: An Illuminating Anecdote (B'ichela)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas)
Subject: Re: An Illuminating Anecdote
Date: 17 Mar 2000 22:11:00 GMT
Erik Funkenbusch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Visual C++ has a command line compiler, which is called by the IDE. You
> don't need to use the IDE or MFC to use this. You don't seem to know what
> you're talking about.
I think its very sweet that you use Visual C++. Just dont mistake yourself
for an actual programmer.
=====yttrx
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: An Illuminating Anecdote
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:15:56 -0600
Bob Hauck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Well, I guess I'm not up to your standards as a programmer, because
> frankly it is hard for me to think of what gcc ought to do when it runs
> out of memory. Bailing out with "out of memory" would seem to be a
> reasonable thing to do. It isn't as if it can just throw away some of the
> parse tree or symbol table or something to make more room. Perhaps it can
> call up the VMS gods, where we never run out of memory, or at least not
> very often.
While giving up and exiting your app might be appropriate for something like
a C++ compiler, where you can simply run it over your source again when you
have more memory without issues. It's not appropriate for a GUI where if it
fails, it takes down all the apps running under it and losing all the work
in progress. Even though those apps might not need any additional memory.
> I find it interesting that you think Unix is worse than other systems in
> this regard because you looked at the code of some free applications.
> Why do you think that "professional" programmers do any better since by
> and large they are the same people who write the free stuff?
I personally believe that the OS should be held to a higher standard than
apps.
> >Even the X Windows server does not properly handle failed allocations,
> >and simply exits (bringing down the entire desktop along with it) when
> >the condition occurs.
>
> Again, what _should_ it do? Kill a couple of apps at random? Switch to
> 16 color mode? Freeze up for a while to see if more memory will become
> available? None of those seem to be particularly appealing.
How about cancel the operation? If X is up and running and then fails
later, it should fail the operation. If X is in the middle of
initialization and is not fully up and running, then exiting would be fine.
> It is true that out-of-memory errors can often be handled more cleanly
> than they are. It is also true that this is _not_ an easy thing. Unix
> programmers don't have a monopoly on doing it wrong. Windows programs
> sure don't have a reputation of handling memory exhaustion cleanly.
Again, there's a difference between a single app failing and essentially the
OS failing (taking everything that's running under it down). While X isn't
technically part of the OS, it's an OS-like component because so many apps
depend on it to run.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why not Darwin AND Linux rather than Darwin OR Linux? (was Re:Darwin or
Linux
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 22:10:25 GMT
On 17 Mar 2000 15:19:30 -0600, Jonathan W Hendry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In comp.sys.next.advocacy JEDIDIAH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On 17 Mar 2000 14:30:13 -0600, Jonathan W Hendry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>In comp.sys.next.advocacy JEDIDIAH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 17 Mar 2000 19:42:45 GMT, Michael Paquette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>No, no. Nothing like that. I've never been good at multi-level
>>>>>writing or subtle undertones. (Me? subtle? Hah!) I just get
>>>>>tired of all the 'gimme, gimme, gimme' noise around the edges of the
>>>>>Open Source community.
>>>
>>>> That has nothing to do with this.
>>>
>>>> It's more "treat me like a real customer, with a shelf
>>>> full of completely licenced commercial applications"
>>>> or quit clogging up a shared resource (the web) with
>>>> your vendorlock crap.
>>>
>>>What makes you think you're a customer?
>
>> I OWN a quicktime licence. Do you?
>
>To what platforms?
That should be obvious given the paragraph below.
>
>> Plus there's the 2 editions of Applixware, WP8, WABI, Bfris,
>> Hopkins FBI, CivCTP, Myth II, EUS, Unreal Tournament, HMM 3
>> and Quake III. VMware 2.0 will soon be added to the pile.
>
>> I'm probably more likely to add to Apple's coffers than you are.
>
>Not likely, since I'm a professional OpenStep developer, and have
>been for years. I'll probably be moving to WebObjects at some point.
You have a strange TLD for a professional programmer.
>
>> I'm actually a professional and consumer rather than just some
>> snot nosed brat going to college on daddy's dime.
>
>Email addresses don't carry much context. I have this account
>because I took a night class at DePaul two years ago.
>
>And I paid my own way through college, thanks.
That's as much ether as anything else here. We would have
to take you at your word. Whereas, the identity you are
advertising is associated with academia.
Even if we take you at your word, you're still a mooch.
>
>And I'm 28.
>
>
>>>
>>>> [deletia]
>>>
>>>> If I were a BeOS user with no interest in sourcecode,
>>>> the sentiment would essentially be the same.
>>>
>>>> This is an Open Systems issue and has nothing to do with code.
>>>
>>>It has everything to do with code. Write some.
>
>> You have absolutely no clue.
>
>So write a codec that's better than Sorenson, so that Apple
>will be stupid to use Sorenson, and open source it.
>
>What's keeping you?
--
So long as Apple uses Quicktime to effectively |||
make web based video 'Windows only' Club, / | \
Apple is no less monopolistic than Microsoft.
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: "Norman K. Scherer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Linux based software to US government?
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:13:28 -0800
John wrote:
>
> Hi there!
>
> We are currently evaluating Linux (RTLinux to be more specific) as the
> operating system for our control software. Part of our products are sold to
> the US government. Does they accept products which are 'equipped' with
> Linux? Is there a place where I can find more info on this?
>
> Thanks!
>
> John
The FAA does use Linux systems supplied by JVN Communications as radar
simulators.
Norm
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Salary?
From: Greg Yantz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 17 Mar 2000 17:16:49 -0500
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi) writes:
> On Thu, 16 Mar 2000 22:08:18 +0100, Matthias Warkus wrote:
> >Someone recently explained it to me, but I forgot it in the meantime:
> >what is affirmative action again?
> The practice of prefering candidates from "disadvantaged groups" over other
> candidates, all other things being equal. Or in it's more aberrant forms, the
> practice of discriminating in favour of "disadvantaged groups" even though
> the candidates in question may be underqualified.
> IMO, this can work for scholarships ( or special funds available only to
> minorities ) because these create opportunities. However, when you do this
> in ( for example ) admissions policy in the education system, all it does
> is bring in a lot of poorly qualified candidates who can't make passing
> grades.
Some of these special minority scholarships, which are designed to
create opportunities for the disadvantaged, are in fact need-blind.
That is, you can be from a minority and be well-to-do and still
receive them. Unfortunately, I've seen it.
Full scholarships (to MIT no less) for the wealthy is kind of counter
to the idea of creating opportunities.
-Greg
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas)
Subject: Re: An Illuminating Anecdote
Date: 17 Mar 2000 22:17:13 GMT
Erik Funkenbusch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What exactly is the difference between the OS crashing, and X crashing? In
> both cases you will lose all the open apps and the work you were doing with
> no chance of saving it.
Oh really now? You need to stop thinking in windows terms.
When X crashes on me, pretty much the only thing I lose is netscape. I
run everything else in xterms or rxvts or something inside SCREEN.
Screen is your friend. If the tty thats talking to screen craps out,
screen simply disconnects cleanly and waits for you to reconnect. All
your work is saved. There are no worries. I simply restart X and I have
my text editor, irc session, ftp client and whatever else I have running
right where I left off. Aside from that, Apache, proftpd, tinymux and
dozens of other services just keep running along nice and cleanly, even
if X craps badly.
> Uptimes matter little if you still lose all your work due to buggy apps and
> GUI's.
I never lose my work to buggy apps and GUIs, because I know exactly what
I'm doing.
=====yttrx
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why not Darwin AND Linux rather than Darwin OR Linux? (was Re: Darwin or
Linux
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 22:18:44 GMT
On 17 Mar 2000 15:26:23 -0600, Jonathan W Hendry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In comp.sys.next.advocacy JEDIDIAH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On 17 Mar 2000 14:02:27 -0600, Jonathan W Hendry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>In comp.sys.next.advocacy JEDIDIAH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>> ...and Sorenson has exclusively licenced them to apple.
>>>> As far as cinepak goes, cinepak is quite available and
>>>> has been for some time.
>>>
>>>
>>>So quit whining, quit bitching, quit suggesting that your
>>>rights are somehow being trampled because you're unable to
>>>access a *luxury* item, and write some damn code!
>
>> What is this assinine fixation you have with code. This isn't
>> a 'code' issue. It's a PATENT and TRADE SECRET issue. That's
>> why you can't point out an example of someone else that has
>> produced a sorenson codec implementation and why some 3rd party
>> willing to take my money hasn't obliged my interest.
>
>Because they haven't tried, because the coded already exists
>on the major platforms, and there isn't enough paying demand on
>other platforms?
The other platforms don't PAY to begin with. So why should
other platforms (not in Bill's pocket) have to pay for a
basic player as well?
Although, there's enough 'demand' for the RealPlayer to be
included in Be 5.0 and enough for there to be a G2 player
for Linux.
Hopefully, Apple will feel the sting from future consumer
pressure and get the market fate they deserve.
>
>Besides, what makes you think they *have* to?
Simple consumerism. That's what seperates us from some Stalinesque
state where you only get to see nifty product in museums. That's
the whole point of capitalism.
>
>>>
>>>Again, if open-source development is as powerful as some claim,
>>>why hasn't a clean-room version of the Sorenson codec been written?
>
>> Add one assinine assertion to another...
>
>> Do you have any idea what it would take to reverse engineer
>> a video encoding scheme. Unless you do, you have no business
>> whining that such a feat should have been achieved already.
>
>Okay, then write a better codec.
>
>>>
>>>In the meantime, go watch Willy Wonka and see which of the
>>>characters you most resemble.
>
>> Go fuck yourself, corporate bootlicker.
>
>"Oi Want An Oompa-Loompa *NOW*"
Just because you choose to be a serf, or dellude yourself into
thinking you happen to be with the 'in crowd' for the moment
doesn't mean the rest of us should be so passive.
I bet you support the greater-than-draft-age legal drinking age now
as well, since that injustice no longer effects you.
--
So long as Apple uses Quicktime to effectively |||
make web based video 'Windows only' Club, / | \
Apple is no less monopolistic than Microsoft.
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (mr_organic)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.x,comp.os.linux.development.apps
Subject: Re: Bsd and Linux
Date: 17 Mar 2000 21:34:26 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
FreeBSD and NetBSD (and maybe OpenBSD too, I don't know) can run some
Linux binaries. I'd doubt that Borland would start separate trees,
though -- I don't think the current *BSD userbase is big enough.
On Fri, 17 Mar 2000 20:17:06 +0000, mr_organic pronounced:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Donn Miller
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
>>Now that Linux is pretty popular, and
>>maybe BSD will also, it will be interesting to see if Borland will
>>want to develop products for these OS's.
>
>They already are. I know at least their Java development kit is due for
>release (or already available) on Linux
>
>--
>Lion
>BreadHead - Back By Popular Demand
>Sex, Metal & Revolution
>
>http://www.bigfoot.com/~breadhead
------------------------------
From: Arun Gupta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why not Darwin AND Linux rather than Darwin OR Linux? (was
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:30:55 -0500
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.terran.com (http://www.terran.com/CodecCentral/Codecs/Sorenson.html)
sells a product (Media Cleaner Pro) that includes the Sorenson encoder
(not the decoder).
Therefore, either Terran is a subsidiary of Apple, or else Apple does
not
have a license lock on Sorenson. I'm assuming that if you know how the
encoder works, you can figure out how the decoder ought to work.
-arun gupta
JEDIDIAH wrote:
>
> On 17 Mar 2000 13:55:06 -0600, Jonathan W Hendry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >In comp.sys.next.advocacy JEDIDIAH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> This is why we chuckle at Apple when they claim to give away
> >> BSD and not their hypocrisy when they do so the day after the
> >> first TPM trailer was snugly vendorlocked away from anyone
> >> who contributed to the BSD codebase.
> >
> >How tragic that people were kept from viewing the trailer for
> >a bad movie. Tragic.
>
> That's just one instance of a larger problem. Just because
> you feel that you can indulge in weak handwaving doesn't
> alter the issue.
>
> I'm glad my previous generation didn't have such cavalier
> attitudes when it came to free access to information.
>
> >
> >However, as has been explained, the codec is the issue, and
> >that isn't Apple's to give away.
>
> Apple's the one with the exclusive licence. They could
> certainly give it away in binary form. They do that
> already. Sorenson can't because of the exclusive licence
> they have with Apple.
>
> That was a deal worthy of Microsoft.
>
> --
>
> So long as Apple uses Quicktime to effectively |||
> make web based video 'Windows only' Club, / | \
> Apple is no less monopolistic than Microsoft.
>
> Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (MerefBast)
Subject: CD-ROM question
Date: 17 Mar 2000 22:30:15 GMT
I am responsible for mastering an educational CD-ROM (the
"Electric Emperor", the CD-ROM version of Jack Herer's "The
Emperor Wears No Clothes"). We switched from a custom Macintosh
multimedia program to an HTML presentation so that the
information could be accessed on Windows.
In theory, the same information should also be accessible to
LINUX.
Unfortunately, at least some users of LINUX can't use the
disk, because LINUX claims it can't find the files.
The files (and directories) are all completely conforming to
ISO 9660 Level 1, and therefore should be readable on any machine
and any operating system.
Apparently some versions of LINUX require only lower case file
and directory names (the ISO 9660 Level 1 standard restricts file
and directory names to *only* upper case letters, decimal digits,
and underscore character).
Obviously we can't go against the international standard just
because some versions of LINUX read CD-ROMs backwards.
Does anyone know if there is an option on a mount command or
some similar action that users can take on LINUX to correctly
mount and read upper case letters in file names?
If there is such a command, we can simply include it in the
printed instructions. If not, we have to abandon LINUX. This is a
non-profit project, so we can't afford to press a second version
of the disk just for LINUX.
If anyone has a solution, please send it by private e-mail to
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>. Thanks...
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Salary?
From: Vilmos Soti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 22:35:18 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi) writes:
> >Someone recently explained it to me, but I forgot it in the meantime:
> >what is affirmative action again?
>
> The practice of prefering candidates from "disadvantaged groups" over other
> candidates, all other things being equal. Or in it's more aberrant forms, the
> practice of discriminating in favour of "disadvantaged groups" even though
> the candidates in question may be underqualified.
The real problem is not when the accepted students at a University must
reflect the local racial/ethnic/gender/etc population, but when the
graduating ones have to reflect it. Would you trust a racial/ethnic/etc.
minority doctor? You know it is entirely possible s/he got his/her degree
not by being competent but being part of a minority. Wasn't this the
reason why California Gov. Pete Wilson wanted to shut down AA?
For me, this is a good will done the wrong way.
> IMO, this can work for scholarships ( or special funds available only to
> minorities ) because these create opportunities. However, when you do this
> in ( for example ) admissions policy in the education system, all it does
> is bring in a lot of poorly qualified candidates who can't make passing
> grades.
Vilmos
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rex Riley)
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why not Darwin AND Linux rather than Darwin OR Linux? (was Re:Darwin or
Linux
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 22:44:50 GMT
In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> JEDIDIAH wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Mar 2000 19:07:05 GMT, Rex Riley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> JEDIDIAH wrote:
> >>>
> >> They give lip service to openness and then turn around and
> >> encourage everyone to join their 'windows only club'. They
> >> choose to treat smaller competitor systems just as Microsoft
> >> would prefer to treat Apple.
> >>
> >
> >This is their WWDC dilemna... coming up! Microsoft _was_ the more
benevelent
> >dictator...
> >
> >> This is why we chuckle at Apple when they claim to give away
> >> BSD and not their hypocrisy when they do so the day after the
> >> first TPM trailer was snugly vendorlocked away from anyone
> >> who contributed to the BSD codebase.
> >>
> >
> >They do have their "what's in it for Apple" corporatism. As a NeXT/Apple
> >developer, you either pull the Apple cart or you're irrelevent. There
exists
> >no ultruistic culture upon which to foster collaboration, contribution and
> >cooperation - ie. community.
>
> They get more eyes. BSD,Linux and Be are being pushed into
> network appliances and slowly growing on the desktop. While
> Apple is content to ignore these platforms, RealNetworks is
> working to make them supported platforms. Should any or all
> of these AltOSes get a toehold on the web, Apple will be at
> a disadvantage relative to their competition.
>
>
And what if Apple were not aiming at the desktop? What then?
-r
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 18:02:26 -0500
From: Gary Hallock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: A pox on the penguin? (Linux Virus Epidemic)
Drestin Black wrote:
>
>
> did I say su to root? no.
You certainly implied su to root:
> So, Tim Kelley states that NO ONE has/uses root access in Linux - because
> that is a security risk. So, no one needs or get root. But they use SU all
> the time....
>
> laughs last that laughs best...
That sounds to me that you don't believe most users don't need to su to
root. That "laughs last that laughs best" says it all.
>
>
> besides, did you even read the link at the bottom where it lists and
> describes and even provides working examples of linux virus?
Yes I did and it requires su root to work.
Gary
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (B'ichela)
Subject: Re: An Illuminating Anecdote
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:50:31 -0500
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Fri, 17 Mar 2000 07:52:50 -0600, mr_organic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>You need to put down that giant crack pipe you've been smoking and take
>a look at the market. Linux has grown so enormously in the last couple
>of years because Windows apps *are not* superior, especially on the
>server side. Windows is a buggy, obscure, badly-designed mess.
Let us not forget OBSOLETE! Windows products from Microsoft
are outdated in their design paradign. Almost every product is based
on an Obsolete Single User Operating system model called MS-DOS. While
I DO use DR-Dos 7.02 on my Xts, I don't expect to have the security
and multitasking that one can expect from an operating system that
was built from the beginning with those in mind.
--
B'ichela
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (B'ichela)
Subject: Re: An Illuminating Anecdote
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:56:38 -0500
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On 17 Mar 2000 02:43:04 -0600, Bob Nelson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>the Unix dweeb are the escaped ``>From'' lines in followups and the
>stray 'i' and 'a' characters from the ``you know what'' editor. (Plus
>the LaTeX style quotes and the punctuation residing within parens.)
Err, The only time you see extranious 'i' or 'a' characters
in my prose is when I use any editor BUT VI! for example when using
pico... I am always hitting ESC trying to get to command mode. or
hitting i for insert or a for apend. I do the same on the MS-DOS edit
command or the DR-DOS edit command.
as for punchuation in parens.. (I thought they went there.) you mean
they don't? or while we are at it. ever do nested parens or braces or
brackets and try to make sure you end with the same number of closing
characters? Notice that some prose looks like a C program? did the
writer use lint also?
--
B'ichela
------------------------------
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