Linux-Advocacy Digest #969, Volume #26 Thu, 8 Jun 00 02:13:05 EDT
Contents:
Re: How many years for Linux to catch up to NT on the desktop ? (Jim Richardson)
Re: Linux? The Kings New Clothes!!! (Adam Smith)
Re: Just Installed Win 2K and it ROCKS!!!!!!! ("Robert L.")
Re: booting 3 OS's on one machine win98-win2k-linux. ("Robert L.")
Re: booting 3 OS's on one machine win98-win2k-linux. ("bob johnson")
Re: Linux? The Kings New Clothes!!! ("Robert L.")
Re: Innovation (Doc Shipley)
Re: 10 Months of my time wasted on Linux. Back to Microsoft for me! (Nico Coetzee)
Re: Innovation (Osugi Sakae)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jim Richardson)
Subject: Re: How many years for Linux to catch up to NT on the desktop ?
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:17:01 -0700
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On 7 Jun 2000 15:10:50 GMT,
Donovan Rebbechi, in the persona of <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
brought forth the following words...:
>On Wed, 07 Jun 2000 06:44:59 GMT, Perry Pip wrote:
>>On 7 Jun 2000 03:14:50 GMT,
>
>>Uhhm...ever heard of this thing called the "Internet"? The update tool
>>downloads the updates from there.
>
>You completely missed my point. You cannot update software that is
>not installed on your system.
>
>--
>Donovan
I am not sure of the context here, but rpmfind doesn't care if the program
is installed yet or not, AFAIK, neither does debians package manager/updater
thingy.
--
Jim Richardson
Anarchist, pagan and proud of it
WWW.eskimo.com/~warlock
Linux, because life's too short for a buggy OS.
------------------------------
From: Adam Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux? The Kings New Clothes!!!
Date: 8 Jun 2000 04:33:51 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Try Linux for yourself, $1.99 at Cheapbytes.com will get it to you
> pronto.
You blew it. If you'd left this sentence out you would have achieved
the holy grail of trolling -- a 100% fact-free post.
--
Adam Smith
Boston University
Department of Aerospace and Mechanical Engineering
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice, but in
practice there is."
------------------------------
From: "Robert L." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Just Installed Win 2K and it ROCKS!!!!!!!
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 04:48:37 GMT
He havn't give a dime to MS. He go on www.warez.com and get the pro version
for free. He certainly have not buy it. Even forte agent is warez ( he find
the pass on a serialz web site ).
BTW, i use Linux on my future router. until i finish the setting, i'll have
to use ie5.01 ( pre-alpha version ).
"None" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> a écrit dans le message news:
hYD%4.294$[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> And you paid $219 for that right? or $319 if it wasn't an upgrade.
> Glad you're getting something in return! Bill Gates thanks you!
> (NOT but he willl take your money and run!)
>
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Linux has been assimilated, resistance is futile.
> >
> > God, after using Linux for the last few months and now installing
> > Windows 2k it is like jumping in a time machine and going 10 years into
> > the future.
> >
> > Win 2k installed so easily while Linux is asking me questions about
> > Monitor refresh rates and giving me a list of 1985 variety printers to
> > choose from.
> >
> > Does anyone really use an HP LaserJet 500 anymore?
> >
> > How about Sound Blaster Live support?
> >
> > Linux had the jump on Windows 2k, yet Windows 2k has Livewire support
> > and Linux does not.
> >
> > Why is that?
> >
> > Maybe Creative knows the future and is applying it's resources
> > appropriately.
> >
> > Sorry, but Linux is a bunch of promises and Windows 2k delivers right
> > now on the spot.
> >
> > Linux will die shortly and WIndows will live on and on and on and
> > on......
> >
> >
>
>
------------------------------
From: "Robert L." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: booting 3 OS's on one machine win98-win2k-linux.
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 04:59:33 GMT
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> a écrit dans le message news:
8hmrn9$tvq$[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Hello everyone,
> This post has more or less 2 purposes, one to get some feedback
> from you, also to vent some frustration that has been building through
> several backups, reinstalls, etc.
> Here's the situation:
> the system is a dual celeron pc/abit bp6 board with a 10gig drive.
> I first created a 5gig partition FAT32 for windows98, loaded it. this
> was c: the primary partition.
> Next I went to install windows2000 using NTFS (win2k creates an extended
> partition, and then fills that partition with a logical NTFS partition,
> d:) using the remaining 5gigs of the drive.
> This worked wonderfully for about 2 or 3 months, win2k allowed me
> to take advantage of a dual processor system without the software
> limitations of NT, yet SOME apps (mostly MAME and console emulators) are
> constantly fussy and refuse to run on win2k so I was forced to use win98
> which was no big deal because I barely noticed any slowness since the
> apps would run just as fast on 2 cpu's as they would on 1.
> Then the time came where I needed to install linux because well...
> for many reasons, first to learn for potential job opportunities, but
> mostly because the whole concept behind microsoft goes against my very
> core ethic system, let's just say I'm not your ideal capitalist. (some
> of you may be wondering, then why bother with keeping win98se and win2k?
> well I have chosen to make the transition gradually, my first computer
> was a mac, then I started learning DOS, which I preferred over win3.1
> for some odd reason, go figure)
> So, now that I'm off that tangent, first I'm faced with the problem
> of no free disk space for a linux partition, so theoretically I opt to
> shrink the size of my primary (win98) partition and use the newly freed
> space to create a linux partition. So I decide to use this handy tool
> which came with the redhat distribution I was able to get my hands on
> called FIPS, shrank my primary fat32 partition to 2gigs, leaving 3gigs
> of free space, the problem is, since FIPS changed the MBR, windows2000
> freaked out, and didn't know where to find it's root directory, so win98
> boots up fine, but when I try to load win2k I get the message
> "ntoskrnl.exe could not be found in the following directory
> <windows2000root>\system32\ntoskrnl.exe please verify the file is not
> missing or corrupt and replace" or something to that effect, so I
> restore my MBR and everything functions as normal. The strange thing
> about this is that the section of the boot.ini that loads windows2000
> points to the correct partition.
> The next thing I tried was wiping out the win2k partition and
> start over, I shrank the c: partition down to 2gigs, and reinstalled
> win2k on a 5gig NTFS partition within the extended partition like
> before. So now I install Linux with LILO located at the first sector of
> the linux partition, again, windows2000 doesn't like this. and it gives
> me the same error message.
> My next venture was this, I wiped everything out again, starting
> with a 2gig primary c: partition, installed linux on a 3 gig partition
> over that, with LILO on the MBR, and then I installed win2k on top of
> all that, now the NTLDR rewrote the MBR so LILO will no longer start up
> linux(it automatically goes to NTLDR instead which only has two
> options, win98 or win2k), however I can still get
> linux to boot from a floppy, so I need to know how to reinstall LILO on
> the first sector of the linux partition and edit the NTLDR in
> windows2000 and add an entry to it that points to the linux boot sector
> (phew). Problem is... I'm kind of a linux newbie and I don't know the
> root commands (redhat starts with bash shell as default I believe) to
> get to the bootsector and copy it to the NTLDR, I believe I may also
> need to reinstall LILO since it was configured to load in the MBR
> originally, but now since the MBR is owned by the NT loader, it needs to
> be installed on the first sector of the linux partition. If anyone can
> walk me through how to do this I would be eternally grateful, thanks in
> advance.
>
> -smizz(curt)
> "breeze, it's your high school" --US Maple
Have you read any howto about installing multiple OS?
go to www.lniuxdoc.org on the howto section, scroll down to the mini howto.
There's linux+NT Loader, linux+win95.
BTW. I hate a lot win3.1, i prefer dos too.
------------------------------
From: "bob johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: booting 3 OS's on one machine win98-win2k-linux.
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 23:11:48 -0600
In article <8hmrn9$tvq$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[snip]
> (phew). Problem is... I'm kind of a linux newbie and I don't know the
> root commands (redhat starts with bash shell as default I believe) to
> get to the bootsector and copy it to the NTLDR, I believe I may also
> need to reinstall LILO since it was configured to load in the MBR
> originally, but now since the MBR is owned by the NT loader, it needs to
> be installed on the first sector of the linux partition. If anyone can
> walk me through how to do this I would be eternally grateful, thanks in
> advance.
>
I think it goes something like this, if the w2k problem didn't cause too
many gratuitous changes to boot.ini...
1. At or near the top of your lilo configuration file, /etc/lilo.conf,
there should be a line something like "boot = /dev/hda". Change this to
your root linux partition, which is probably /dev/hda2 if I understand
what you've described. Run lilo.
2. To get your linux boot sector, do
$ dd if=/dev/hda2 of=bootsect.lnx bs=512 count=1
replacing hda2 with the correct device if it's something else. This
command copies the first (count=1) block of 512 bytes from that device to
bootsect.lnx. Copy bootsect.lnx to your windows C: drive.
3. Add the following line to the [Operating Systems] section of your
windows boot.ini file:
C:\BOOTSECT.LNX="Linux"
4. Read the Linux+NT-loader mini-howto, available at
http://howto.tucows.com/LDP/HOWTO/mini/Linux+NT-Loader.html for lack of a
better site.
Good luck.
BTW, you're more likely to get responses to this sort of question in a
newsgroup like comp.os.linux.misc. COMNA and COLA are for flamewars.
BXJ
------------------------------
From: "Robert L." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux? The Kings New Clothes!!!
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 05:30:09 GMT
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> a écrit dans le message news:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> But they are all naked your majesty, says the 8 year old girl.
>
> Linux is a fucking con job, it is a lame attempt at trying to push an
> operating system that most folks have no interest in.
>
> Try Linux for yourself, $1.99 at Cheapbytes.com will get it to you
> pronto.
>
> Hint: It's overpriced!
You prefer getting windows for free in warez website
a dying cockroach,
DON'T PLAY WITH YOUR DINER, YOUR MOM NEVER SAY IT TO YOU.
> please let us know,
>
> After you have lost all your data, not to mention your friends, please
> let us know.
Have you use fdisk that come with windows? You should never trust any
windows tools. At least make backup of the full hard driver before
installing something like a screen saver. Cause windows can crash.
Don't say yes please, don't say you have used fdisk from windows, please
don't say yes. If you do, oh my god, This is why Linux sucks. You have screw
up the hard disk completely before installing Linux and now you think that's
Linux error. Havn't read the book that came with Linux?
Any howto?
> When you spend countless hours trying to accomplish the simple task,
> please let us know.
Like what? What take time to configure? I'm a newbie ( 1 month only ) and it
take the time i take to read the readme that come with the app. In windows,
I take the same time searching the information on the program cause is
really deep, almost unfindable. And i have to uncrypt it.
> When your Y2k state of the art system is turned into a mid 1990's
> antique, please let us know.
I know what you are talking, it's imposible to install windows 98 on a 8 meg
system, dual processor doesn't work in win98. On Linux these 2 thing work
perfectly. For winNT, i can't say anything about it, exept that the new
w2k ) need 64Meg to run, it's 8 time more than the Linux install. 16Meg is
need to see something in graphic.
Oh, i think i have not read corectly what you are writting. You are saying
that Linux make a 16 processor, slower than a 486 on windows? Which version?
cause if you can make any windows working on a 486 ( except the file manager
called win3.1 ) i'll certainly stop using Linux. BTW, Linux can even run on
a 386.
> When your clients data does not import correctly into Linux, please
> let us know.
Have you set your ftp program to use binary data or text data?
I have verify my lan connection, i transfer a file from windows to Linux,
and the result was scrap. Why, cause ftp ( the MS tool ) start in text mode,
not in binary. So I set it binary and retransfer data. The inverse test, i
use ftp ( from Linux ) and i was directly in binary. And text data was send
corectly. So it's certainly what you have done too.
> When your video/sound half works please let us know.
Try making a device driver, i don't think you will be able to make a mouse
driver. And Linux programmer don't have all the spec that MS get from
companies.
> You see, WE are Linux, and we want to help. And if you wait another 6
> years or so all of those things might work.
the number of bug increase on each version of windows. The number of bug
decrease at each kernel release. At this rate, windows will be console only
in 5-6 years, and Linux gui only in 3-4 years.
> Of course you could run Windows, like everyone else and they would
> work right now.
And crash in 2 hours...
> Linux is Lame and no one can prove otherwise.
For a windows only user, you are right.
For someone who can learn something, then you are completly wrong.
Linux is a better OS than windows. If you can't learn, then Linux sucks a
lot.
> Shit, they can't even give it away..............................
Give what? Help? if you need help, someone will answer you in about 1 hours
if you post on any Linux newsgroup ( if you ned help in networking, go in
any NG about Linux and network )
------------------------------
From: Doc Shipley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: Innovation
Date: 8 Jun 2000 00:31:27 -0500
Cihl wrote:
>
> Maybe it would be good to start a thread about this. Would anybody
> have any ideas? Is anybody missing something from the whole of OS's?
Dude,
You're absolutely right about Linux' lack of new concpts in our code.
However, while looking for skeeters, you missed the elephant on your
foot.
GNU & Linux may not have actually invented the concept of " world-wide
internet collaboration", but GNU/Linux made it work. And quite
spectacularly, if I must say so myself.
--
Doc Shipley
Network Support
TARL Labs, UT
Austin, Texas
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 07:47:53 +0200
From: Nico Coetzee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: 10 Months of my time wasted on Linux. Back to Microsoft for me!
Tiberious wrote:
> I run a small hardware / software consulting firm and being a
> businessman educated in solid business principles (Wharton if you must
> know), I thought I saw an opportunity to get my foot in the door and
> promote Linux as an alternative to Windows and less so Apple. Let's face
> it there are millions of folks out there "consulting" at various levels
> of competency and in truth, just looking at my own area it is
> frightening the level of MSCE that is out there. Some of these people
> can barely format a diskette via a command line.
> So anyway, I started investigating the various Linux distributions and
> hired 2 Linux Systems Engineers who knew the product so well it was
> scary.
> I am not exactly a Unix newbie either having dealt with IBM/AIX in the
> past, but my function was mainly to garner support and try and sell
> Linux.
>
> Our business plan called for the money to be made in pricing Linux much
> lower than similar Windows configurations (not hard at all) and making
> our money on hardware and the system software set up as well as
> maintenance of the above items.
>
> What seemed like a good idea at first quickly blossomed into the worst
> nightmare a person in my field could ever imagine.
>
> The basic problem was that NOBODY WANTED LINUX!!!!
>
I suggest a good marketing course.
>
> We couldn't GIVE IT AWAY!
>
> They were so entrenched in Windows that to even consider switching was
> out of the question.
>
> The first problem was providing Microsoft compatible applications. I
> tried most of the applications we were going to pitch to the end users
> and quite frankly thought that although they needed a little polish here
> and there, for the most part they were Microsoft compatible.
>
> Boy was I wrong, BIG TIME!!!
>
I exchange documents between StarOffice and M$ Office all the time - no
problem.
>
> First we tried Wordperfect but it kept crashing far too much to be
> useful. The demo's were getting embarrassing. Then we tried StarOffice
> but even on decent hardware (Pentium II 450mhz with 256 meg) it ran like
> molasses and took over the entire desktop.
With that HW config I don't believe you - I run StarOffice at work on a
P166 with 32 MB RAM. Only the initial loading of the app is slow. There
after everything flies as normal.
As for WordPerfect - Next time hire tech people that know their stuff! If
only QuatroPro was free I would use Corel Office the whole time.
> As a last resort we tried
> Applix, which seemed to work ok until one client asked us to try and
> import his payroll/tax spreadsheets.
> Applix died on the launch pad like Apollo 0ne.
>
> Other problems were the general dislike of Netscape. People, for some
> reason or another, seem to hate that program. They keep bringing up
> features and the general look and feel of Explorer as being far nicer.
>
Luckily Linux users at least have a choice...
>
> Look is another area where Linux let us down. We kept getting complaints
> about the screen layouts. Essentially the end users could not adjust the
> screen so that the text looked smooth and clear. My Linux gurus
> explained the lack of anti-aliased fonts to me and that was the end of
> that. A person who has to look at a screen for 8 hours a day with jagged
> fonts is an OSHA lawsuit in the making.
>
Why are my fonts ok? Only Netscape sometime battle with some of the fonts
on Web Sites ( example: http://www.mweb.co.za )
>
> More problems surfaced.
>
> Several clients use video and audio embedded applications which depend
> on the Creative Sound Blaster Live Card. The support for this device
> under Linux seems to be dismal.
>
For these kind of apps I believe Apple is better then any other platform
(this I hear from friends as I don't use these kind of apps really)
>
> What we discovered about Linux is that while it may look like a great
> and superior system on paper, the truth of the matter is that the end
> users ARE NOT INTERESTED IN LINUX.
>
> They are interested in solutions to their problems and Windows 2000
> provides them in a polished, ready to go package that is the current
> standard and is supported by THEIR clients. We had other consultants
> blowing us out of the water with their offerings and although our
> clients were trying to be loyal to us because of our integrity and long
> term relationships with most of them, the honest truth was Linux was NOT
> and option if we intended to remain their consultants.
>
> Linux is lagging terribly in polished world class applications. Even the
> SoundBlaster Live card has Liveware! available for Win2k, despite Win2k
> just being released. Linux has been spouting support "coming real soon
> now" for a long time. Still no full support for this popular card.
>
> Linux drivers are bare bones and no Livewire is even in sight.
>
> In conclusion, we have dumped Linux because Windows is really the
> future.
> Linux shows it age with every command line instruction.
>
> We tried to support and sell Linux but the truth of the matter is that
> the end users have spoken and Linux is NOT in their vocabulary.
>
> Tiberious
--
==============
The following signature was created automatically under Linux:
.
My godda bless, never I see sucha people.
-- Signor Piozzi, quoted by Cecilia Thrale
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Innovation
From: Osugi Sakae <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 23:04:53 -0700
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Cihl
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In a reply to someone, i reminded myself of the fact that the
>Linux-community as a whole hasn't really come up with any good
>innovations yet. We're blaming Microsoft for something we're
ourselves
>guilty of.
>Everything we have is basically copied from Unix, Apple and
Microsoft.
>
Maybe I missed something, but is the linux community as a whole
claiming to be "innovative"? One of my problems with MS is that
they consistently claim more than the facts support. In short,
they are lieing. For me, this is more important than whether or
not they are innovating.
If responsible linux advocates are claiming more than they can
support with fact, than they are just as guilty as MS (though
proly on a smaller scale).
--
Osugi Sakae
I experienced my first real earthquake the other day. It was fun.
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