Linux-Advocacy Digest #348, Volume #27 Mon, 26 Jun 00 11:13:03 EDT
Contents:
Re: Run Linux on your desktop? Why? I ask for proof, not advocacy (salvador
peralta)
Re: slashdot (Tim Kelley)
Re: Microsoft Ruling Too Harsh (Nathaniel Jay Lee)
Re: Anti-Human Libertarians Oppose Microsoft Antitrust Action (was: Microsoft Ruling
Too Harsh
Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome! (Phillip Lord)
Re: Do you people really think that GNU/Linux is a great OS?
Re: 10 Linux "features" nobody cares about. (R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ))
Re: Linux faster than Windows? (R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ))
Re: I've got reiserfs. Drestin, now bash Linux.
Re: Linux Upgrades (Mandrake 7.0 to 7.1)
RE: OS's ... ("Pedro Iglesias")
RE: Linux Upgrades (Mandrake 7.0 to 7.1) ("Pedro Iglesias")
RE: Do not like Windows but ... ("Pedro Iglesias")
RE: Something wrong with linux :-( ("Pedro Iglesias")
RE: Do not like Windows but ... ("Pedro Iglesias")
RE: Do not like Windows but ... ("Pedro Iglesias")
RE: Do not like Windows but ... ("Pedro Iglesias")
Re: Number of Linux Users
Re: slashdot (A transfinite number of monkeys)
Re: Windows98
Re: Windows98
Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome! (Phillip Lord)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: salvador peralta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Run Linux on your desktop? Why? I ask for proof, not advocacy
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 07:30:41 -0700
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tim Palmer wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Jun 2000 16:21:49 -0400, Gary Hallock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >Tim Palmer wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> If they're allreddy in Windows, why would they want the option to boot Linux to
>run there Windows app?
> >>
> >
> >Perhaps, like me, Windows can't handle the majority of the work they do while Linux
>can. The occasional Windows app can then be run on Linux without a reboot necessary.
> >
> >> ...but rather a few sharware versions of crap from TUCOWS will run, whial WINE
>would choke on any large, full-feetured program and take X Windows and the consoal
>down with it.
> >>
> >
> >I run Lotus Notes under wine on Linux with no problems. X and the "consoal" have
>no problems with that. Do you consider Notes to be a
> >"full-feetured program"?
> >
> >> Can you immbed VB scripts? Didn't think so.
> >>
> >
> >And you consider being able to imbed VB scripts a virtue?
>
> Millions of people find that feature usefal.
>
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> ...and NT 4.0 was registering 99.999% uptimes on at least twice that manny.
> >>
> >
> >What are you smoking? Do you have any idea what 99.999% uptime is?
>
> More than Lie-nux will ever acheive.
lol... I have several production servers running linux right now. Not one has been
down since I installed them. The 1 nt machine that I have, which has a faster
processor, more
ram, and handles fewer transactions goes down at least every other week b/c of simple
things like file transfers.
------------------------------
From: Tim Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: slashdot
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:33:46 -0500
Jeff Szarka wrote:
> I just think it's funny. The point is supposed to be Linux is so much
> better than NT right? I remember when the Win2k test site was DoS-ed.
> The suggestion at the time was that Win2k sucked because of it.. I
> don't really care why slashdot is down... It's the irony of it I
> enjoy.
Every time you are tempted to post this sort of flamebait, you
really should go check out the OS statistics for hacked web
servers at attrition.org. NT/IIS is not looking very good, what
with 20% of "market share" and 90% of the defacements.
--
Tim Kelley
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: Nathaniel Jay Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,misc.legal,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.economics
Subject: Re: Microsoft Ruling Too Harsh
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:43:18 -0500
Henry Blaskowski wrote:
> What arrogance.... I've worked on all the OS's in question, I've
> been in the industry forever, I have close friends in the OEM business.
> Don't act like I don't understand the case just because you are wrong :-)
Just so I can get the fuck out of this conversation let me state for the
record:
Everything I have ever said I have had someone else come and tell me I
am wrong. While this doesn't prove me wrong, in thier minds, and in
countless others I am wrong. Perception is just a beautiful thing. My
wife thinks I am a handsome and intelligent man. I and the rest of the
world know I am a fucking idiot and a goddamn ugly piece of shit. Who
is right? I hope my wife, but I'm not going to count on it.
The fucking MS blowhards that come into the Linux groups are completely
convinced that MS is the shit and Linux is just shit. Fine, blow up the
next Linux convention and let's get this goddamn war started. I've had
it with the sidespeak and stupid crap that I see going on here. Linux
doesn't seem to have a chance to stand on it's own feet because someone
is constantly in here telling the Linux people what fucking worthless
shit it is compared to Windows. Use your OS, we will use ours. Who the
hell cares?
I am an idiot. According to MS fans, I am also a teenaged loser that
has no friends (apparently liking and using an OS other than Windows
destroys my abilities to keep friends) and I have no money (why else use
something that is free?). In reality I am 26 years old, have a
wonderful wife, have great friends and a $25,000 a year job with a
supplemental income (from consulting) of about $10,000. But, in the
world's perception, I am that lonely teenage hacker, sitting on my dead
ass, whining because MS lovers don't like me. Fine.
If you chose to ignore the fact that MS broke the law, then you are
right, they have done nothing wrong. MS has the moral right, no they
have the responsibility to screw over as many people and businesses as
the possibly can. After all, this is the American way. Fuck everyone,
including your relatives if at all possible. After all, if you can make
a buck, the world is your oyster.
Final Word: I don't care who is right. I was stupid to try and talk any
sense at all, as it is obvious I don't have a fucking clue. I'm just as
worthless as all you MS lovers say I am. While your out there spreading
the word of God (Gates) make sure you point out everyone that has a
different opinion and try to crucify them. After all, it's only
breaking the law if you don't have enough money to pay off the judge
(public). Once you have the money, you should be able to do anything
you want. And you probably can, just make sure you keep paying your
dues (politicians), or you'll end up in the same place MS is now.
Let the goddamned witchunt begin. I would much rather burn at the stake
than listen to another rant in cola about how goddamned superior Windows
is. Please go let it end.
Nathaniel Jay Lee
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Note, unlike most MS supporters, I actually use my real name in this
group.)
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Crossposted-To:
alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,misc.legal,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.economics,alt.society.liberalism
Subject: Re: Anti-Human Libertarians Oppose Microsoft Antitrust Action (was: Microsoft
Ruling Too Harsh
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:46:03 GMT
On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 13:28:24 GMT, MK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 00:09:44 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] () wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 25 Jun 2000 17:23:18 GMT, MK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>wrote:
>>>On 25 Jun 2000 01:14:48 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Loren Petrich) wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mr. MK seems to think that tax money goes into some black hole
>>>>somewhere. But soldiers and cops have to be paid somehow. Not to mention
>>>>government-bond holders, pensioners, road builders, and the like.
>>>
>>>Petrich twists the subject to fit the predetermined thesis, conveniently
>>>ignoring that taxes for national defense are only necessary for
>>>technical, not moral reasons -- I simply see no way of organizing
>>
>> The same can be said of any expenditure that seeks to minimize
>> the total spending of a state to deal with problems of internal
>> security. There are prison wardens that would contradict your
>> position on social spending based on this.
>
>This is yet another urban legend that people will become criminals
>if govt doesn't pay them welfare.
Sorry, I'll take a prison warden's word on the subject rather
than some armchair economist.
[deletia]
...pay sooner or pay later. Mind you it has to be effective.
So merely throwing money at the situation like a rich Democrat
won't work. However, the situation quite mirrors that of fixing
problems in engineering:
The longer in the process you wait to fix a problem
the more expensive the fix is going to be.
Given the choice only between prisons and dole, I would rather
my not inconsiderable (I actually pay taxes both property and
income, not being an illegal) tax contribution not be used to
further the imprisoning of the citizenry.
--
|||
/ | \
------------------------------
From: Phillip Lord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome!
Date: 26 Jun 2000 14:54:20 +0100
>>>>> "Volker" == Volker Hetzer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Volker> The problem of today is that you can basically demonize any
Volker> opinion if you tag it with either "fascist/capitalist" or
Volker> "communist". Then you don't have to think about its
Volker> contents anymore and the purpose of freedom of speech
Volker> (diversity of opinion and ideas, IMHO) is defeated. This is
Volker> bad.
I have to say that I had not thought of it in this way
but I think that it is a very astute point. Perhaps it is arrogant of
me, and I am guilty of projecting my own feelings onto society at
large, but at the moment it seems that politics is largely in
flux. The massive upsurge of demonstration that we see in the US and
many European countries, and also the global nature of this, is new,
but undirected. I can certainly explain this in Marxist terms, and I
think this provides a good explanation/description. But I also think
that it lacks something. I think we need new ideologies for the new
millennium. I just don't know what they are yet.
>> I personally think that consent is the most important aspect of
>> any system.
Volker> I disagree. Conflicts (slaver/slave, peasant/landowner,
Volker> worker/factory owner) and their eventual and ongoing
Volker> resolution are the driving force of progress.
I would be quite happy if we could rid society of the class
divides that make the sort of conflict that you mention. I don't think
this advances us very far at all! You seem to be arguing that problems
are good, because then we can solve them, rather than not just having
them in the first place.
Volker> What's needed is a civilised means of solving those
Volker> conflicts. I think a mixture of marx and gandhi philosophy
Volker> would be a good place to start this.
Maybe so, maybe so.
Phil
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Subject: Re: Do you people really think that GNU/Linux is a great OS?
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:49:31 GMT
On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 04:31:46 -0400, Jeff Szarka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Sun, 25 Jun 2000 06:17:28 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] () wrote:
>
>>>
>>>How many times have you been mail bombed by Windows advocates? Thought
>>>so. I guess my arguments were too good... I'm not exactly sure what
>>>other group would send me 300-500 messages saying "Windows sucks" I've
>>
>> What? Your "ease of use interfaces" can't deal with a little spam?
>
>Did you guys all have a secret meeting and decide to prove me right as
>many times as possible this week? Seriously... it's like every post
>gets a response like this. INSTANT validation.
>
>For your information... I followed these steps...
>
>1) Sort by sender
>2) Click first message... click last message (while holding down
>shift)
>3) Press delete
>4) Set rule to do this automatically for this sender in the future.
Then what are you whining about exactly?
>
>
>Just out of curiosity... how would one do this with pine?
As far as you proving me right: this doesn't prove anything.
There are still plenty of end users that wouldn't have a clue
how to deal with such a situation, even with Microsofts
implementation of "easy".
--
|||
/ | \
------------------------------
From: R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 10 Linux "features" nobody cares about.
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:44:56 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Ghost In The Machine) wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy, R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard )
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote on Sat, 24 Jun 2000 03:05:39 GMT
> <8j18ht$2vi$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> [snip]
>
> >Notepad could be compared to xedit, one of the most "bare bones"
> >text editors available for UNIX or Linux, primarily because it
> >was one of the first X11 Applications written back when programmers
> >had to code directly to Xlib (similar to coding directly to GDI
calls
> >on Windows).
> >
>
> Pedant point: Notepad on NT4 does not appear to have this limit.
> Not that it's a great editor... :-)
Actually, if you exceed the top limit (which may be slightly higher)
it asks if you want to use wordpad instead. Unfortunately, then
it tries to save the document in word format instead of text format.
> (Of course, this illustrates Yet Another Stupidity Of Windows,
> or maybe the ix86. Namely, the segmenting of same. Granted,
> it was an improvement over, say, the 8080A (20 address bits
> versus 16), but the Motorola 68000 did it more intelligently. :-) )
>
> [snip]
>
> --
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- but ix86 was picked by IBM, go fig
>
--
Rex Ballard - Open Source Advocate, Internet
I/T Architect, MIS Director
http://www.open4success.com
Linux - 90 million satisfied users worldwide
and growing at over 5%/month!
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux faster than Windows?
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:42:26 GMT
In article <8j1rm3$mcq$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> >Yep, we removed all that capability back in 1987 when
> >the Morris Worm went bizerk.
> > Ironically, this wasn't even a deliberate hack, but
> >rather an attempt to create a "robot"
> > to get a map of the internet.
> >Unfortunately, instead of waiting
> > 5 minutes between each replication,
> >it only waited 5 seconds and almost immediately,
> > the exponential growth
> >of the search tree swamped the network.
>
> Actually, I'd say that should be "fortunately".
> The exponential growth
> would have swamped the network eventually ---
> only with a 60 times lower
> load per copy, it would only have happened
> when 60 times more copies would
> have been around (simplified, of course,
> but you get the drift). Noticing
> it earlier on just means that less systems had to be purged.
Actually, I remember doing the math back in 1987 when the Morris
Worm first broke (and Morris was more willing to explain his intended
motives and tactics). At that time, a 5 minute wait would have
provided a complete map in about 5 hours, based on an estimation
of roughly 1/2 million UUX accessible hosts on the net at that time.
> Bernie
> --
--
Rex Ballard
- Open Source Advocate,
Internet Architect,
MIS Director,
Consultant
http://www.open4success.com
Linux - 90 million satisfied users worldwide
and growing at over 5%/month!
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Subject: Re: I've got reiserfs. Drestin, now bash Linux.
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:52:08 GMT
On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:30:38 +0400, Ferdinand V. Mendoza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>KLH wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> The only problem with your theory is that it doesn't make any sense.
>> Reiserfs was developed by a company. Perhaps some voluntary development but
>> I wouldn't wager that there was much.
>
>You lose with your wager. Boot Mandrake 7.1 and it will tell you "sponsored
>by"SUSE, MP3.com and whoever else.
That's sponsorship: considerably different than Suse actually
having gone and done the initial work themselves and taking
the initiative.
They're pretty much johnny-come-lately's in this instance.
[deletia]
At least Redhat would have provided more substantial examples
of this sort of "development".
--
|||
/ | \
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Subject: Re: Linux Upgrades (Mandrake 7.0 to 7.1)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:54:40 GMT
On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 07:35:35 GMT, Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In article <yuz55.2642$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> "TimL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Did someone promise you that every aspect of Linux would be better
>than
>> Windows? Why do you keep complaining to this list about you're
>Mandrake
>> problems? Go complain to Mandrake.
>
>Um, no I don't expect every aspect of Linux would be better than Windows
>(actually, I expected Linux to be worse than Windows in most respects),
>however, I would have thought that something as fundamental as
>_upgrades_ ought to surpass Windows! That is, of course, if it was true
Well, Unix structurally better allows one to rip out major
subcomponents of a system and and replace them.
Keep in mind that the "quality" of a Windows Upgrade is vastly
inferior to what you are implying it to be.
[deletia]
Considering the common recommendations to NOT upgrade a Win3x
install to Win95 directly, or do the same for Win95->Win98,
even Slackware from 1995 isn't quite as bad as WinDOS.
--
|||
/ | \
------------------------------
From: "Pedro Iglesias" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: OS's ...
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:49:08 GMT
> Take it to MS advocacy. The 1995 Unixes could still beat w2k and
> millenium.
I did not said a OS was better than other. Anyway, I was talking about
Windows and Linux evolution, not Unix. Obviously, no 1995 Unix would
beat neither ME nor W2K as desktop. As server, each of them would do
then, and do today.
------------------------------
From: "Pedro Iglesias" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Linux Upgrades (Mandrake 7.0 to 7.1)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:49:09 GMT
Best way of upgrading whatever is always backing up, installing
and restoring.
------------------------------
From: "Pedro Iglesias" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Do not like Windows but ...
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:49:12 GMT
> No, I did. You want to compare OS's? Let's compare.
Well, I think Unix does a better server than any Windows, was
this what you wanted to hear to ? Anyway, do not be vaporwareman,
kernel 2.4 is not still here.
------------------------------
From: "Pedro Iglesias" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Something wrong with linux :-(
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:49:11 GMT
> If you look at my previous posts, you'll know I'm definitely a
> linvocate, so I'm not trolling here.
Obviously, knowing about Linux, does not prevent anyone (me
included) of realizing that it is not ready for mass home use.
------------------------------
From: "Pedro Iglesias" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Do not like Windows but ...
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:50:52 GMT
> Until all your personal data stored on your computer is lost because of
> an Email virus or crash!
Obviously, my data is backed up often. In fact, the only time I lost data
was with SuSE Linux 5.1 at a panic kernel.
------------------------------
From: "Pedro Iglesias" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Do not like Windows but ...
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:51:58 GMT
> Isn't *Choice* wonderful? You can have your overpriced software that
> *YOU* like, I can have the free or cheap software the *I* like! So, what
> your point? That everyone sould use MS software because *you* like some
> of the applications it runs???
Before answering to you ... tell me, what's this group for ?
------------------------------
From: "Pedro Iglesias" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Do not like Windows but ...
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:52:34 GMT
> Word is very expenisive for "light Work".
I do not smoke, do not drink, I save a lot of money that I can
spend as I prefer.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Number of Linux Users
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:57:07 GMT
On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:16:04 +0200, Davorin Mestric <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>same with proving that each linux cd is installed 10 or 100 computers.
>
>count the number of cd-s that can be counted and then measure the linux
>usage (for example 0.3% of desktop. 20% of servers). i'm missing the first
>number.
This is still a useless number and only serves to support a particular
agenda rather than actually trying to effectively model the world.
Linux can perpetuate quite effectively, and quite legally, without
it being visible to "your view" of the situation. Infact, so can
Win32 software actually. So your model is not even entirely useful
for software in general, nevermind Linux.
>
>
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 12:24:52 +0200, Davorin Mestric
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >and of course, ten downloads, ( or even ten sales) can result in zero
>> >installations. this is much less likely with NT.
>> >
>> >most of the linux cd-s are burned because it is free and people want to
>> >check it out. after that, it is left on a separate partition and never
>> >booted into again.
>>
>> This is not something you have any capacity to proove.
>>
>
>
>
--
|||
/ | \
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (A transfinite number of monkeys)
Subject: Re: slashdot
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:01:23 GMT
On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 05:26:57 GMT,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: Freshmeat, too.
:
: no ping on 64.28.67.35
Ping is not a reasonable test. Many sites disallow all ICMP traffic.
Take www.microsoft.com, you can't ping it, but it's running right now.
--
Jason Costomiris <>< | Technologist, geek, human.
jcostom {at} jasons {dot} org | http://www.jasons.org/
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Subject: Re: Windows98
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:03:36 GMT
On 26 Jun 2000 06:28:54 -0500, Tim Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:24:02 -0500, Tim Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>James wrote:
[deletia]
>>stupid driver installation. How much easier do you want it to
>>be?
>
>So how is the proletrareit doing you STOOPID COMMY!
>
>>
>>I've never had to "install" hardware in linux as in windows.
>>I've never spent hours trying to set up an ethernet card in linux
>>as I have in windows.
>
>Try settling up a PCI Plug-and-Play modem. Stoopid commy.
...a real modem, a device that's supposed to be able to
operate on a stream of characters 'out of the box' or
something that requires a device driver to manage this?
My last Linux modem was an ISA modem that I just slapped
in the machine and it "just worked". No configuration on
the modem, no configuration for the OS.
[deletia]
--
|||
/ | \
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Subject: Re: Windows98
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:04:21 GMT
On 26 Jun 2000 06:29:45 -0500, Tim Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:17:15 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>wrote:
>>> 2) Presentation
>>> Fonts are ugly. I know it is an old issue (since I first tried Linux in the
>>> mid 90s). I understand that this is a patent X problem. Saw some paper on
>>> the xfree website to improve matters, but no real action. Won't be
>>> surprised if it takes another few years to solve this problem.
>>
>>read the font deuglification HOWTO
>
>I have a better solution: Run Windows 2000.
Got an extra $300 he could have?
[deletia]
--
|||
/ | \
------------------------------
From: Phillip Lord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome!
Date: 26 Jun 2000 15:15:49 +0100
>>>>> "Stefaan" == Stefaan A Eeckels <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Stefaan> The problem is that we can't start from a level playing
Stefaan> field, and that the field doesn't seem to stay level very
Stefaan> long.
Thats why you need a revolution rather than gradual reform.
Stefaan> Our current system effectively limits the powers of our
Stefaan> "leaders", and as such it's a huge improvement over less
Stefaan> accountable systems. Real participatory democracy is
Stefaan> quickly eroded by a) the lack of interest of 60-80% of the
Stefaan> population when things go well.
I'm not sure that I agree with this. Currently in most of the
western democracies many people of my age (below 30. Just) show very
little interest in politics. We don't vote, we certainly don't join
political parties. But this does not reflect apathy. The most commonly
stated reason is "It does not make any difference". I tend to
agree. That is not apathy is shown clearly by the increase in single
issue groups, and direct action campaigns. Of course single issue
groups have a problem. They are single issue. Still many people are
active in more than one single issue group, so I think that there is
hope.
Stefaan> b) the very real desire of 10-20% of the population to be
Stefaan> "leaders"
I think this desire is taught though. If you live in a sharply
hierarchical society where would you rather be, top or bottom? I
myself feel a desire to earn more money to rise up the greasy
pole. Not because I want to but because I feel I need to.
Stefaan> c) the natural tendency of people to favour their offspring
I think that the world is complex enough to cope with this.
People might favour their offspring. But their offspring often want to
make their own way in the world.
Stefaan> So-called intelligence doesn't help either, as the hallowed
Stefaan> halls of the academia are rife with politicking, nepotism,
Stefaan> and power brokering.
Yeah. Tell me about it why don't you?
Stefaan> I'd have no hesitation to say that stalinism was a lot
Stefaan> worse than the tsarism of the early 20th century. Russia
Stefaan> was industrializing, and without the war it would probably
Stefaan> have moved to a more western style particracy.
I really do not know about this. Its notable that most of the
european countries got rid of their hereditary leaders. In most cases
this happened violently, either internally (eg England and France) or
externally (eg Germany). Russia was really very agrarian before the
revolution, and also very despotic. The problem is that after the
revolution Russia changed in some many ways, including
industrialisation, that its hard to know what caused what.
Stefaan> The French revolution gave us Napoleon, the Russian
Stefaan> revolution gave us Stalin, etc.
The Russian revolution gave us the Soviets. Perhaps without
the white army they would have never slid into Stalinism.
Stefaan> We forget that when they wrote "we believe all men to be
Stefaan> created equal", they really meant "all white Anglo-Saxon
Stefaan> Protestant males".
True enough!
Phil
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