Linux-Advocacy Digest #730, Volume #27 Mon, 17 Jul 00 09:13:04 EDT
Contents:
Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome! (Phillip Lord)
Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451736 ("Slava Pestov")
Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome! (Phillip Lord)
Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome! (Lee Hollaar)
Re: Linsux as a desktop platform ("Slava Pestov")
Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451736 ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451743 (Tholen) ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Who was that wo was scanning my ports--could it be Simon?
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Linsux as a desktop platform ("Slava Pestov")
Re: Linsux as a desktop platform ("Slava Pestov")
Re: Oracle on Linux Justification (Milton)
Re: Star Office to be open sourced (Volker Borchert)
Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome! (John S. Dyson)
Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome! (Austin Ziegler)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Phillip Lord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome!
Date: 17 Jul 2000 12:18:30 +0100
>>>>> "Peter" == Peter Seebach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Peter> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Phillip
Peter> Lord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Wealth is created by production is what you are saying. Yes. But
>> those with large amounts of capital get the benefits of this
>> production, not the people who are responsible for that
>> production. "To those who have, shall more be given".
Peter> This isn't entirely topical, but I'm not sure I buy your
Peter> premise that the people "producing" do not get the benefits
Peter> of that production. There are a number of issues:
Peter> 1. Arguably, people with capital *are* producing something -
Peter> opportunities in which people can work to produce.
You could argue that if you wanted to. In the same way
you could argue that slave owners were generous because they provide
blacks the opportunity to work (indeed the phrase "white mans burden"
shows that in fact this was argued).
I would say otherwise. The capital of the super rich comes
from somewhere. Someone worked to produce Bill Gates new house(s). But
it wasnt Bill Gates. I do not believe that anyone in the world is
capable of doing so much work, or such wonderful work that they are
worth as much as the entire population of the poorest 20 countries in
the world.
Peter> 2. Are you going to try to convince me that the standard of
Peter> living for even the dismally poor today is *really* worse
Peter> than what we had in the past? It's gonna be a really hard
Peter> thing to convince me of.
Do I need to convince you off this? Well the US's own stats
show that for the average working man the standard of living has
increases less in the last 25 years than the hours of work that they
are doing. Within both the US and the UK the rate of TB is rising (TB
is simply caused by the conditions of poverty). In the UK the rate on
infact mortality is rising.
Now of course if you step out of your first world state of
mind, and look at the Sahal (where something like 1/3 of the
population has HIV), or any of the numerous places that the US or the
UK have invaded over the last 20 years to protect their commercial
interests, then it becomes quite clear that in fact yes things are
worse.
Phil
------------------------------
From: "Slava Pestov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451736
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 21:19:21 +1000
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (tinman) wrote:
> In article <9dQb5.13$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Slava Pestov"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (tinman) wrote:
>> > In article <bVub5.36$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Slava Pestov"
>> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (tinman) wrote:
>> >> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Slava Pestov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> tinman wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Marty
>> >> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > > Tinman wrote:
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > 1> Jumping into conversations again Karl? Cool, have fun!
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > Still posting for entertainment purposes, eh Tinman?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > That's tinman. ('
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On what basis do you make that claim?
>> >> >
>> >> > Jumping into conversations again Slava?
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Illogical. Meanwhile, you still fail to answer the question.
>> >
>> > What alleged "the"?
>> >
>>
>> Reading comprehension problems, eh tinman? The question was:
>>
>> "On what basis do you make that claim?"
>
> What alleged "claim?"
"That's tinman. ('" -- Tinman
>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > And why else would I post?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Don't you know?
>> >> >
>> >> > Why do you ask?
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Don't you know?
>> >
>> > Illogical.
>>
>> What you think is illogical is irrelevant. What you can prove is
>> relevant.
>
> What I can prove is irrelevent.
How ironic, coming from someone who claims to have a "polycarbonate
exterior".
> What I can enjoy is relevent.
I wonder how Dave Tholen would react to your illogical claim that
what you can "enjoy" is "relevent".
>
>> > Meanwhile, you still fail to answer the question.
>>
>> On the contrary, you simply failed to locate the response.
>
> Where is your logical response? Why, no where to be found!
It has been there all along. Of course, it takes decent logic and
relevancy skills to recognize that fact.
>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > > Not surprising, considering that you are being digestified.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On the contrary.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Prove it, if you think you can.
>> >> >
>> >> > What I can prove is irrelevent, only what I write is relevent.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Irrelevant.
>> >
>> > On the contrary.
>>
>> How are the daisies on irrelevancy lane, tinman?
>
> Blooming well,
On what basis do you make this claim?
> now that Tholen's back on CSMA.
>
I wonder how Dave Tholen would react to your claims that he's
"back on CSMA".
>> >
>> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > My polycarbonate exterior resists digestification.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What alleged "polycarbonate exterior"?
>> >> >
>> >> > <*tink* *tink*> This one.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Evidence, please.
>> >
>> > Reading comprehension problems, Slava?
>> >
>>
>> Obviously not.
>
> Incorrect.
>
Bladerdash. Meanwhile, you still haven't provided evidence of
this alleged "polycarbonate exterior".
------------------------------
From: Phillip Lord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome!
Date: 17 Jul 2000 12:24:10 +0100
>>>>> "T" == T Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
T> Said Peter Seebach in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Phillip Lord
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> Wealth is created by production is what you are saying. Yes.
>>> But those with large amounts of capital get the benefits of this
>>> production, not the people who are responsible for that
>>> production. "To those who have, shall more be given".
>> This isn't entirely topical, but I'm not sure I buy your premise
>> that the people "producing" do not get the benefits of that
>> production. There are a number of issues:
>>
>> 1. Arguably, people with capital *are* producing something -
>> opportunities in which people can work to produce.
T> By the same logic, the people are producing an opportunity to
T> capitalize, so that can't be recompense, can it?
>> 2. Are you going to try to convince me that the standard of
>> living for even the dismally poor today is *really* worse than
>> what we had in the past? It's gonna be a really hard thing to
>> convince me of.
T> You gotta be fair up front. You can't save yourself in the end
T> with philosophy. There's profit, and then there's exploitation.
T> The only way to know that one is not the other is if *everyone*
T> has access to capital, a free market, and opportunity for
T> education.
How would you ensure that everyone has access to capital
though? In our current society capital appears to be used to enforce
the class divide between those who produce and those who live of what
others produce. I would like to see and end to this class divide and I
think that it is possible, but my own ideas do not involve
capital. How does your idea work?
Phil
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Lee Hollaar)
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome!
Date: 17 Jul 2000 11:26:44 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>Perhaps if you think of it as "deriving functionality from" rather than
>"deriving its creation from" it might make more sense to you. If a
>program derives all of its functionality from a certain library, then
>the program's IP is "a derivative work" of that library, even if the
>library wasn't written down until after the program was written down.
Maybe if you aren't talking about a "derivative work" in the copyright
law sense, but instead about something in your own little world.
A "derivative work" is a work based upon one or more
PREEXISTING work ...
17 USC 101, emphasis added.
Also, under 17 USC 102(b) and a number of court decisions, copyright
does not protect functionality, but expression. It would be strange
indeed if functionality was what made something a derivative work.
>T. Max Devlin
>Manager of Research & Educational Services
Maybe you need to do a little research and get some education before
you post nonsense.
------------------------------
From: "Slava Pestov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linsux as a desktop platform
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 21:36:19 +1000
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, T. Max Devlin
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Said Gary Hallock in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>>"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
>>
>>A lot of words and no substance,
>
> A lot of words, which went unheeded, it appears.
How ironic, coming from someone who, in each and every one of his
posts, rehashes the same invalid argument ("CMT gives me more control"),
makes snide remarks about certain unspecified "engineers" (whoever
they may be), routinely makes illogical remarks with little or no
relevance to the argument ("I don't want algorithms running my life")
and refuses to read papers and actually learn something about
the basics of multitasking, even when given URLs and references.
Slava
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451736
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:39:36 GMT
Slava Pestov writes [to Tinman]:
> I wonder how Dave Tholen would react to your illogical claim that
> what you can "enjoy" is "relevent".
What is relevant to him won't necessarily make it relevant to the
discussion or the newsgroup.
> I wonder how Dave Tholen would react to your claims that he's
> "back on CSMA".
Read my response to him and you can stop wondering.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451743 (Tholen)
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:41:16 GMT
Jacques Guy writes:
> Soon, these newsgroups are going to consist of
> nothing but messages from bots and to bots.
Not as long as Joe Malloy is around.
> Raw bots, rough bots, tin bots, tholen bots
> (those with a speech impediment).
Who are those?
> I wish they'd post the source code.
You're presupposing the existence of source code.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Who was that wo was scanning my ports--could it be Simon?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 17 Jul 2000 19:18:39 +1000
Jim Broughton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Dynamic IP address such as ours attract far more attention than
>one would think.
I just got a connection attempt from 203.228.50.65 on port 53.
Now why someone from eurasionrail.net would try to connect on that
port I do not know, but I doubt it was sweet and innocent.
Bernie "still using 14.4k" Meyer
--
Anybody that wants the presidency so much that he'll spend two years
organizing and campaigning for it is not to be trusted with the
office
David Broder
------------------------------
From: "Slava Pestov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linsux as a desktop platform
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 21:57:55 +1000
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, T. Max Devlin
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What do you mean by "responsive"? I think you're only considering the
> average responsiveness of all applications. The whole point of CMT is
> that, when under load, the *average* response can go to hell (to a
> certain level; connections don't time-out in nanoseconds), as long as
> the process the user interface is concerned with at the moment can grab
> *almost* the entire CPU, if it needs it.
>
You have been proven wrong over and over again, yet you continue to
waffle on and demonstrate your ignorance.
>
> Thus providing the need for cooperation. Yes, any system that is based
> on cooperation can screw up the system for everyone. Are you saying
> Token Ring is better than Ethernet? TCP/IP sucks compared to X.25?
> Microchannel was more successful than the original PC? All of these
> very important technologies are all based on one thing: you cannot
> mandate technical value in market-driven development. So stop trying.
> Because there is always technical value in cooperation, and the market
> LOVES cooperation. Its what its built for. System which mandate
> cooperation end up being far superior than systems which attempt to
> impose even egalitarian rules.
>
"The marker LOVES cooperation"? What the hell is that supposed to mean?
You repeat the same invalid arguments in every post, you continue to
insult engineers, yet you fail to give even *one* benefit that CMT has
over PMT.
>
> The same thing happens on other systems. Its your app; use it or don't.
> Or its the developer's app; buy it or don't. Engineers are too smart
> for their own good, and I say that with a great deal of admiration, but
> very little envy.
>
"Engineers are too smart for their own good"??? So you would prefer it
if all programmers were as stupid as you?
> Yes. Because you're talking about averages and policy, and I'm talking
> about individual instances. The issue isn't with "fast as possible and
> responsive as possible". The issue is "things" and "wants".
What is that supposed to mean?
Slava
------------------------------
From: "Slava Pestov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linsux as a desktop platform
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 22:00:13 +1000
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, T. Max Devlin
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I did. What's wrong with you? Why does the rendering job die? Can't
> you answer?
The rendering job dying is irrelevant. Software crashes, and that's a
fact... and, you still haven't given *one* valid reason why CMT is
better than PMT.
Slava
------------------------------
From: Milton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Oracle on Linux Justification
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 08:05:21 -0400
On Fri, 14 Jul 2000 20:31:43 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>I'm looking for case studies to justify to our management why we should
>go with Oracle on Linux. We have the Oracle part nailed down, they
>just aren't so sure about Linux. If anyone knows of any big names or
>are themselves running this combination in a production environment, I
>would be interested to here about their/your environment. Any links to
>web sites or white papers would be appreciated as well.
New Jersey State Police keep the wheels of law enforcement turning
with Red Hat Linux and Oracle!
http://success.redhat.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/CCRedHat.woa/1/wo/en3000RF7005R4005b/0.32.3.15
Red Hat Linux Enterprise Edition Optimized for Oracle 8i
http://www.redhat.com/products/linux_oracle/index.html
Businesses and organizations using Linux in some capacity or other
http://www.m-tech.ab.ca/linux-biz/
The Practical Manager's Guide to Linux
Can you profitably use Linux in your organisation?
http://www.osopinion.com/Opinions/GaneshCPrasad/GaneshCPrasad2.html
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Volker Borchert)
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Star Office to be open sourced
Date: 17 Jul 2000 11:48:25 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Craig Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
|> [ ... MS Office ... ] It's basically a part of Windows that
|> everyone either pays for or pirates.
Not _every_one, since it wouldn't run on my 4/75 or 3/80 anyway ;-)
--
"I'm a doctor, not a mechanic." Dr Leonard McCoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
"I'm a mechanic, not a doctor." Volker Borchert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John S. Dyson)
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome!
Date: 17 Jul 2000 12:03:15 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Stefaan A Eeckels) writes:
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jay Maynard) writes:
>> On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:11:29 +0200, Stefaan A Eeckels
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>May I accept that you agree with my previous post, seeing that you
>>>only had problems with the quoted paragraph?
>>
>> By no means. I simply feel that others have answered the other parts as well
>> as I could, and am trying to not be *too* duplicative.
>
> Oh my, my newsfeed must be grotty (it is :-), as I didn't see any
> refutation of my arguments, not in this subthread, not in the
> subthreads where John was doing his best not to answer my points.
>
Your points have been answered over and over again, perhaps in
other contexts. Please read the entire thread, and then maybe
we can have a basis for discussion.
Also note that begging the issues and redefinition often cause
elimination of wastes of time, which include reading an entire
post. You are admitting above that you might be missing posts.
Playing attrition games by reposting the same nonsense over
and over again just get ignored... Sorry!!! :-).
John
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
From: Austin Ziegler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome!
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 09:01:41 -0400
On Sun, 16 Jul 2000, T. Max Devlin wrote:
> Said Peter Seebach in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>> T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>Said Peter Seebach in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>>>> It depends an awful lot on the software. Windows has been sold to
>>>> tens of millions of people, many of whom didn't want it or need
>>>> it. Niche market software often sells for a fixed 25% cut over
>>>> what it costs to write.
>>> Only for creative values of "what it costs to write it".
>> I dunno. If I have to pay a guy $N/hour to write a piece of
>> software, and I sell it to the one customer for $N*1.25/hour, I
>> think that's a 25% markup.
> And what is the markup when you sell it to the next customer, without
> having to re-write it. The customer after that? The thousand later
> customers? The million customers over a three year period?
If all you do is sell the software -- you don't implement it and you
don't service it, then you might have a point. It might cost $N/hour to
write the software, but it costs $0.75 * N/hour to support, service,
and implement it. So the other customers will still pay $1.25 * N/hour,
but your costs will go up, too.
And since Mr Seebach limited this to niche-market software, there's not
likely to have a million customers. (The division of the company for
which I work has sold maybe a hundred licences and service contracts.
Customers get the latest version of the software for no charge,
although we usually charge for the migration effort. All the while, we
have to keep adding new features and fixing bugs in old ones.)
>>>Other than getting bought out or having their market disappear, I'm not
>>>sure if very many have. Not the large commercial ones. One product
>>>developer's trying to play the trade secret game die off all the time,
>>>of course, but that's not the same thing.
>> This depends; look at the game industry, where companies fail routinely.
> Because you have to continually come up with *new* software to stay in
> business; not just re-sell the old ones over again to the same customers
> as an "upgrade". Most game companies that "fail routinely" were
> startups. We aren't talking startups - we're talking about established
> companies with established products.
Tell that to Looking Glass.
-f
--
austin ziegler * fant0me(at)the(dash)wire(d0t)c0m * Ni bhionn an rath ach
ICQ#25o49818 (H) * aziegler(at)s0lect(d0t)c0m * mar a mbionn an smacht
ICQ#21o88733 (W) * fant0me526(at)yah00(d0t)c0m * (There is no Luck
AIM Fant0me526 *-s/0/o/g--------&&--------s/o/0/g-* without Discipline)
Toronto.ON.ca * I speak for myself alone *-----------------------
PGP *** 7FDA ECE7 6C30 2356 17D3 17A1 C030 F921 82EF E7F8 *** 6.5.1
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