Linux-Advocacy Digest #60, Volume #28 Fri, 28 Jul 00 12:13:06 EDT
Contents:
Re: The Dream World of Linux Zealots ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: The Dream World of Linux Zealots ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: Changing LILO in Mandrake? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Why vi/emacs ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: Why is "ease of use" a dirty concept? (Nathaniel Jay Lee)
Re: Can Linux get the job done? Are there Linux apps for..... (Lew Pitcher)
Re: Slipping away into time. ("Leonardo")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The Dream World of Linux Zealots
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:43:11 -0400
Loren Petrich wrote:
>
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Aaron R. Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >Slava Pestov wrote:
>
> >> The reason for the men -vs- women disparity is that people who share your
> >> ignorant views are still around.
> >I base my opinions on the latest RESEARCH in the field.
>
> I wonder if Mr. Kulkis would accept research that suggests that
> the sexes are fundamentally alike in some important psychological areas;
Did I ever deny such a thing?
> something that would be contrary to his "men are from Mars, women are
> from Venus" views.
John Gray is an idiot.
>
> However, given that he believes that the loss of the Soviet
> Union's Eastern European empire was some devious plot, I suspect that he
> will continue to be ideologically dogmatic on this issue.
Considering that SEVERAL Soviet defectors in the MID-1980's
all said the same thing, what does that tell you...
> --
> Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] And a fast train
> My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
I: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: "Jeem" Dutton is a fool of the pathological liar sort.
C: Jet plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a method of
sidetracking discussions which are headed in a direction
that she doesn't like.
D: Jet claims to have killfiled me.
E: Jet now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (D) above.
F: Neither Jeem nor Jet are worthy of the time to compose a
response until their behavior improves.
G: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
H: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The Dream World of Linux Zealots
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:46:10 -0400
"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
>
> Said Nathaniel Jay Lee in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
> [...]
> >I can't believe people still feel this way. Just because *most* women
> >choose to use/display their intelligence in different ways than *most*
> >men does not mean they are incapable of using/displaying intelligence in
> >the same areas.
>
> Look, Nathan, nobody said that no individual, or even population, is
> incapable of anything. Quite getting your egalitarian hackles in a
> bunch. We aren't saying "just because" anything. We're saying that it
> is, indeed, a fact that most women choose something that is ascertably
> distinct from most men.
>
> It's like the "are blacks more adept at athletics" argument. I gets
> hyper, but any reasonable person has to agree that biology has a very
> strong part in determining who we are and what we do.
>
> > have to agree that for the most part the way we use
> >our brains depends on our environment. Women are *trained* from the
> >time they are little to be nuturers, care-providers, in other words,
> >qualities befitting a mother.
>
> Yes, and they're trained that way by both men and women. It isn't a
> method of oppression, goddamn; its an efficiency of social design.
>
> >If you know very many women raised in a
> >house with all guys (mother left of died and they were raised by father
> >and/or older brothers) you would see that these girls tend to head
> >towards fields that are usually considered "boys only" areas.
>
> And the very fact that you must qualify the argument with "tend to"
> indicates that while environment is important, biology is very integral,
> if not deterministic, in determining our personalities and choices.
>
> [...]
> >To say this is just from political correctness seems an attempt to blur
> >the real issue. Men and women are *different* mentally because they are
> >*trained* to be different.[...]
>
> That, I'm afraid, is simply an attempt to circumvent the issue. That,
> after all, seems to be the argument we've hit upon. Are men and women
> different *at all*, and merely diverge in typical response due to social
> conditioning, or are they fundamentally different, but amorphous and
> flexible in their response to social conditioning?
>
> Are you familiar with the Margaret Mead/Richard Feneman (sp?) debate?'
Margaret Mead was a WORLD-CLASS idiot.
>
> --
> T. Max Devlin
> Manager of Research & Educational Services
> Managed Services
> ELTRAX Technology Services Group
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> -[Opinions expressed are my own; everyone else, including
> my employer, has to pay for them, subject to
> applicable licensing agreement]-
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
I: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: "Jeem" Dutton is a fool of the pathological liar sort.
C: Jet plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a method of
sidetracking discussions which are headed in a direction
that she doesn't like.
D: Jet claims to have killfiled me.
E: Jet now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (D) above.
F: Neither Jeem nor Jet are worthy of the time to compose a
response until their behavior improves.
G: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
H: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Changing LILO in Mandrake?
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 15:39:53 GMT
You need to edit the file /etc/lilo.conf to make your windoze partition
the default, either
default=dos
or put the section in this file relating to windose above the section
relating to Linux.
Save /etc/lilo.conf to disk, then run /sbin/lilo.
HTH
Richard
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Cap'n) wrote:
>
> I'll admit I'm somewhat of a newbie to Mandrake Linux,
> and this is probably a stupid question...but, I need the
> answer.
>
> I just installed Mandrake 7.1 on my system in a dual boot with
> Win98. My hard drive is in four partitions:
>
> Partition 1: Win98 system files (1.5 GB) - hdc1
> Partition 2: Win98 programs (8 GB) - hdc2
> Partition 3: Linux Swap (133 MB) - hdc6
> Partition 4: Linux Native: Mandrake Distro (2.3 GB) - hdc7
>
> After I installed Mandrake and LILO, Linux is the first
> boot option and loads Mandrake after 10 seconds,
> unless I type Windows. I want to set it up so that Windows
> boots after 10 seconds, unless I type Linux.
>
> What's the easiest way to change this in Mandrake? Or
> if someone could point me to a Mandrake HOWTO Web link
> for this, I would appreciate it.
>
> Thanks!
>
> *** The Cap'n ****
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why vi/emacs
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:51:07 -0400
Dale Lakes wrote:
>
> KLH wrote:
>
> > Cameron Kerr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > So, what editors do you use, why do you use them, why turns you off in an
> > editor? All peaceful views welcome.
> >
>
> I think that both vi and emacs are incredibly sophisticated and flexible
> editors. As such it takes a non-trivial investment of time to gain mastery over
> either one.
>
> I can only speak for myself but I use vi because that happened to be the editor
> I started using lo these many years ago and now it is the editor with which
> I get the job done fastest. This is especially pertinent if iyou're plumbing
> their depths while actually getting sysadmin or programming work done on
> somebody elses dime.
>
> Oddly enough I once felt the same way about kornshell v. perl: I knew
> kornshell, I knew kornshell would be installed on 99.999% of all UNIX boxen
> I sat down at and why futz with perl when I could hammer out a ksh script in a
> few minutes rather than to learn a new language. Well, this year I decided that
> I was going to curl up with Perl and I'll never look back - what an excellent
> tool!
I like the idea of perl, but there are still too many boxes out there
without it in the corporate world.
plus there is currently a backwards compatability problem...
A good plan poorly executed fall far short of the goal. :-(
>
> On a related note I spend a good deal of my time at home in front of one of my
> linux boxen and usually in X Window. The choice of editors increases
> exponentially within the GUI framework and therein I use nedit for the bulk of
> my work - for coding in C, Java and marking up HTML pages - BUT I use vi for
> writing ksh and perl jobs... it just doesn't *feel* proper pounding them out in
> a gui editor.
>
> Hmmm... now which SuSE cd was that emacs RPM on? ;-)
>
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> Open Source Zealot | "The only intuitive user interface is
> Linux Advocate | the nipple. Everything else is learned."
> AIX Whore | --Bruce Ediger
> --------------------------------------------------------------
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
I: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: "Jeem" Dutton is a fool of the pathological liar sort.
C: Jet plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a method of
sidetracking discussions which are headed in a direction
that she doesn't like.
D: Jet claims to have killfiled me.
E: Jet now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (D) above.
F: Neither Jeem nor Jet are worthy of the time to compose a
response until their behavior improves.
G: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
H: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
From: Nathaniel Jay Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why is "ease of use" a dirty concept?
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 10:50:48 -0500
"1$Worth" wrote:
>
> Byron A Jeff wrote:
> [snip]
> > But the Windows/Mac EOU interfaces deny that exact activity. Honestly
> > pointing and clicking is a interface for a child. Adults are prefectly
> > capable of constructing thoughts and abstraction using words. CLI interfaces
> > are typically deemed powerful precisely they allow for the user to completely
> > specify the parameters of the the task to be done.
>
> Thanks for comments...
>
> Adults are perfectly capable, but why should they? Many people do not
> have the time or desire to master our archaic cryptic commands that do
> magic things. That is NOT progress.
There are those in our 'group' and in the Linux community that believe
if we cater too much to the ease-of-use camp we will end up with the
Windows knock-off we have tried to avoid for so long.
>
>
> > The problem with such interfaces is that it requires knowledge and expertise
> > in order to utilize it properly. It other words it sucks for a novice.
>
> True. That's where I believe the problem is: making Linux accessible.
>
> > So honestly neither paradigm adequate represents the completely model for all
> > users. The debate falls down once an attempt to shove all users into one
> > camp or the other occurs.
>
> Well we seem to be on the same path but I say again: Why does ease of
> use take away the power from a system? For example I may use Linuxconf
> for some tasks and for others I may just pop into /etc, I still have the
> choice - the power, it's just some things are easier done by GUI (take
> for example GUI programming - I'd rather have a RAD builder than write
> this boring code myself again and again, yet I still have access to the
> source, the complexity if I choose - now that's what I call power!).
While ease of use doesn't have to take away the power from the system,
it is the fear that it will that causes some to balk. It is quite
honestly the fact that Microsoft operating system remove as much power
from the user as possible. As most of the ease-of-use people are from
the camp that also believe we need to make Linux as much like Windows as
possible, some of the community see this as a threat to the power
users. We do not want to see Linux become just a clone of Windows. We
do not want the power of the underlying system to be completely hidden.
As the system continues to evolve, that is a possibility. Somewhere,
some distro is going to come up with the idea of making a
"registry-alike" system instead of the common /etc configuration file
system. I seriously look for Corel to do this as soon as they can find
a way to pull it off.
And speaking of Corel: This is where the real fear comes from. EOU
(Ease-Of-Use) is not a dirty word in and of itself. But, as Corel
proclaims itself extremely proficient in the EOU area (and prehaps they
are right for newbies) they have created what is basically a worthless
distrobution for people that already know the system. They have somehow
started the trend that the power users have feared all along. They are
hiding the powerful features of the system in order to provide new users
and those clamouring for an easy-to-use system what they want. They
have proven that it "can" happen. We just don't want to see it
"continue" to happen.
This fear will remain until a truly EOU oriented distrobution comes
along that still allows power users to accomplish things the
old-fashioned way. I think Mandrake is on the right track, although
they hold the potential at the moment to create an actual "branch" in
the Linux kernel space and maybe even in userland. They therefore hold
another fear of the power users.
In short, until we see a distro that shows us the EOU paradigm in a
package that still conforms to a power user's needs, there is going to
be fear and backlash at the idea of EOU. This addresses your subject
line: Ease-Of-Use itself is not a dirty concept, it is the tag-alongs
that seem to always come with it: lack of power-user features,
branching, loss of creative control ....
>
>
> > The advocates in this NG battle so bitterly because most attempts to introduce
> > EOU is generally to the exception of any other model.
>
> Yup, and that's why I feel that it does not have to be that way,
> although we (linux community) should accept some changes to accommodate
> this for the benefit of the majority of people.
If you feel it doesn't have to be that way, please, develop a distro
that proves it. Or, as a less drastic measure, help a company develop a
distro that proves it by providing comments to them on how to go about
it. I would love to see an easy-to-use distro, that is easy enough for
newbies, that still gives me what I want as a power user, and adheres to
the (de-facto) Linux standards. Mandrake is nice, but the 'clean-up' of
the kernel can lead to the 'brancing of Linux' that Unix detractors have
been shouting from the rooftops as the downfall of Linux since its
notice in the media.
[snip a lot of useful info]
I do believe it is possible. I am not one that jumps on a chair and
shouts from the rooftops that ease-of-use cannot be tolerated. But all
things in moderation. And please, be careful with the EOU attempts.
Don't go the way of Corel, make it easy to use, and easy to tap into as
a power user. If you find a way to do both, I would be extremely
satisfied.
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Nathaniel Jay Lee
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Lew Pitcher)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.questions
Subject: Re: Can Linux get the job done? Are there Linux apps for.....
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 15:58:53 GMT
On Fri, 28 Jul 2000 15:40:40 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Lew
Pitcher) wrote:
>On Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:23:53 GMT, "John Becich"
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[snip]
>>Then there's the all important bookkeeping. I like Quicken. Using
>>Quicken2000 now, upgrade every year or two. What would I use under Linux?
>>I haven't called Intuit to ask if it supports Linux. (I can sure expect
>>that Microsoft doesn't make a Msft Money version for Linux!) What would I
>>use for bookkeeping under Linux? Can I migrate my Quicken files?
>
>Harder to find, but probably still available. I recollect a
>bookkeeping package for (iirc) dentists on Freshmeat
>(http://www.freshmeat.net/). It's less likely that a commercial
>product from the MSWindows world has been ported, but perhaps the Unix
>vendors have ported one of their bookkeeping packages.
Freshmeat (http://www.freshmeat.net/) lists 3 bookkeeping/personal
finance applications: "Banal", "Linux/Kontor", and "QHacc". Perhaps
one of these would suit. (There's also "MoneyDance" and "GnuCash")
[snip]
Lew Pitcher
Information Technology Consultant
Toronto Dominion Bank Financial Group
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
(Opinions expressed are my own, not my employer's.)
------------------------------
From: "Leonardo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Slipping away into time.
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 18:35:28 +0300
Reply-To: "Leonardo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Charlie,
Now I see. You are not just full of it...
Lot's of bullshit without a single truthfull statement.
...You're made of it!
--L
"Charlie Ebert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Leonardo wrote:
>
> > Charlie,
> >
> > You are just so full of it...
> >
> > --L
> >
> > "Charlie Ebert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > I've been making some more observations and learning yet another Linux
> > > OS.
> > >
> > > It's been pretty well known, for the last couple of years, that
FreeBSD
> > > is probably the fastest
> > > server OS there is. Linux is significantly slower than FreeBSD. NT
> > > was just about tied
> > > with Linux 2.2 kernels, falling behind only a slight measure. Then
> > > slightly trailing or leading
> > > were the other OS's. Mostly trailing.
> > >
> > > The problem with FreeBSD is they have the fast kernel but, they rely
on
> > > GNU licensed software for
> > > just about everything else. It's practically Linux with a FreeBSD
> > > kernel and a slightly different install
> > > mechanism.
> > >
> > > The problem with Microsoft OS is the cost, the poor performance, poor
> > > reliability, the fact the
> > > government will break them up,,,, it goes on,,, total lack of security
> > > in design,,, on and on and on....
> > > To design a corporate system using Microsoft as the centerpiece in
this
> > > day and age is foolish.
> > > It's so foolish a notion that even some corporate executives are
> > > beginning to see the light in switching.
> > > Imagine how bright a light that must be.
> > >
> > > In the last month, I've switched to Debian 2.2 [Potato]. Potato isn't
> > > out yet. It's still a beta.
> > > It's rumored to be out sometime in mid August. Yet, I found the
Dselect
> > > packaging system superior
> > > to the RPM based system found in Red Hat and the others. I found the
> > > quality of the distribution much
> > > higher than say Suse 6.4. I found all the tools readily available to
me
> > > without encumbrances.
> > > And the cost of installing this OS over my Suse distribution was only
1
> > > hour of my time.
> > >
> > > Then I loaded the new HELIX GNOME desktop. What a shining light it
is.
> > > In this desktop I have
> > > all the functionality of Windows 2000 for free. And best of all,
> > > Dselect knows to go to the Helix
> > > FTP site to perform any upgrades Helix offers. It's all automatic. I
> > > don't have to do anything.
> > >
> > > One final note on Dselect. I merely have to run it once a week to
allow
> > > it to upgrade all the packages
> > > on my system. Dselect log's into FTP sites and retrieves information
> > > about specific packages I have
> > > installed which newer software versions are available for. Dselect
also
> > > alerts me to the presence of
> > > new software never before offered. Then Dselect automatically
> > > install's/upgrades what I tell it to do.
> > > I don't have to personally download anything first then install it
> > > myself. Dselect performs all this
> > > for me automatically. Dselect even runs the scripted configuration
> > > setup's for me on those packages
> > > which require options. I merely answer the package setup options and
> > > I'm free of editing files.
> > > It makes system upgrades and maintenance very easy.
> > >
> > > Finally, we come to the Kernel. I've put the new 2.4 test kernel on.
> > > The 2.4 test kernel is hardly anything
> > > like the 2.2 in performance. It's much faster. Linux is knocking at
> > > FreeBSD's door.
> > >
> > > There will probably never be another showdown between Microsoft and
> > > Linux in the OS department.
> > > Windows 2000 was a factor slower than NT. And the NEW Linux is
> > > significantly faster than the OLD Linux. The two OS's are headed in
> > > opposite directions of the performance spectrum as time goes on.
> > > Linux just keeps getting faster while Microsoft just keeps edging it's
> > > way slower.
> > >
> > > Microsoft is still locked in software problems, software not working
> > > right. Linux on the other hand
> > > is infinitely more secure and stable and getting better as time goes
> > > on. Blue Screens do not exist on Linux.
> > > Applications on Linux do not become so encumbered by memory situations
> > > they die and leave the mix.
> > > The Linux operating system has true multi tasking. This is the
> > > difference.
> > >
> > > The two operating systems are no longer in the same ball park as they
> > > once were. You couldn't do a
> > > side by side test between them today.. What would you test if you
did?
> > > Linux would easily outrun
> > > Windows 2000. Microsoft wouldn't have a remote chance in a security
> > > showdown. Microsoft wouldn't
> > > win in the COST of ownership department. If it were ease of use on
the
> > > desktop, they are currently
> > > tied. There's nothing I can do on a Windows 2000 desktop I can't do
on
> > > a Gnome desktop.
> > >
> > > I don't even need to point out the fact that the government is going
to
> > > break Microsoft into pieces.
> > > I don't need to remind you that Linux is immune to financial
> > > considerations Microsoft must face.
> > > Truly, RED HAT, MANDRAKE, SUSE, CALDERA, while they won't go bankrupt,
> > > even if they did,
> > > Linux would continue on. Debian is proof of that. Microsoft on the
> > > other hand is a very cash conscious
> > > company. Financial losses could harm Microsoft and thus cause their
> > > operating system to cease to
> > > exist and thus your corporate infrastructure with it.
> > >
> > > What I do want to point out is that Microsoft has an inferior
operating
> > > system from this point in time
> > > forward. The amount of money they will be required to spend on their
> > > system in an effort to catch up
> > > with Linux will be enormous. Chasing Linux down the software trail is
> > > similar to your family dog
> > > attempting to retrieve a semi truck cruising through your
neighborhood.
> > > It's an impossible task.
> > > Truly the efforts of 100,000 some odd volunteers working across the
> > > entire Linux spectrum simply
> > > dwarf the efforts of the total population of Microsoft employee's
world
> > > wide.
> > >
> > > At this particular point in time, Microsoft is staying in business on
> > > it's past reputation solely as
> > > Microsoft has no future. Microsoft has had 0% growth in the market
> > > place in the last year. That's
> > > the first year we've been able to measure this accurately since the
> > > inception of the company.
> > >
> > > AND, while I'll probably be reading the usual brain dead comments from
> > > the so-called in-the-know
> > > future fast food employee's association, I just wanted to let the rest
> > > of the user base know how things stand.
> > >
> > > Maybe it's time you made a change in your life and forgot what it
might
> > > do FFFEA folks and
> > > their paychecks.
> > >
> > > After all, aren't you sick and tired of spending $2,000 a year on
> > > Microsoft software and computers to
> > > keep up with the Gates of this world after you'd been told all this
time
> > > there were noting but Windows.
> > >
> > > I encourage everyone I know to try Linux. I want you to be on a
winning
> > > team and be happy.
> > >
> > > Charlie Ebert
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> This is typically the most powerful argument the Windows community can
> produce in favor of their OS.
>
> But let me assure you that even a person such as yourself can install
Debian.
>
> The Debian install script was tested in a zoo in Europe by 100
chimpanzee's.
>
> 97 of the 100 chimpanzee's succeeded in installing Debian successfully.
>
> Of those who failed. One forgot you need to plug your P.C. into a power
> source before using it. Another died shortly after relieving himself upon
> a brand new 17 inch monitor. The last chimpanzee was disqualified when
> it was discovered he was using his feet instead of his hands to run the
> keyboard
> whilst passing gas.
>
> So you see, there's really nothing for the windows user to fear in
learning
> Linux.
>
> Thank you sincerely for you comments.
>
> Charlie
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
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