Linux-Advocacy Digest #430, Volume #28 Wed, 16 Aug 00 03:13:05 EDT
Contents:
Re: The dusty Linux shelves at CompUSA ("kosh")
Re: The dusty Linux shelves at CompUSA (lilo)
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: The dusty Linux shelves at CompUSA ("Rich C")
Notes From The Cathedral #2 ("Brian Kirkby")
Re: The dusty Linux shelves at CompUSA (Michael Vester)
Re: Microsoft MCSE ("Erik Funkenbusch")
Re: Is the GDI-in-kernel-mode thing really so bad?... (was Re: Anonymous Wintrolls
and Authentic Linvocates) ("Erik Funkenbusch")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "kosh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The dusty Linux shelves at CompUSA
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:52:58 -0700
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> A couple of weeks ago I did a little experiment at one of the NYC
> CompUSA stores, I counted the Linux boxes on the shelves and marked each
> one with a fluorescent high lighter to track them.
>
> In 4.5 weeks a grand total of 3 Linux boxes have been sold. This
> includes, RH, SuSE, Corel, Mandrake and the associated "Power Packs".
>
> Pretty dismal if you ask me.....
>
> Three boxes in 4.5 weeks?
>
>
> I'll bet they sell 200 times that of PowderPuff Girls (a kids game for
> Windows).... I saw 3 people on line buying that game the day I was
> there.
>
> I know all the LinoNuts will say everyone is spending hours ftp'ing the
> CD or buying the stripped $1.99 Cheapgarbage version. Or buying one CD
> and sharing it amongst 200 friends (do Linux users even have friends?)
>
> I don't believe it...
>
> What I DO believe is that Linux is a dismal failure in the eyes of the
> desktop user. It is dying a slow and miserable death....
>
> Server yes. Geek backroom? Yes.
>
> Desktop?
>
> Forget it...In fact it already HAS been forgotten before it has even
> started.
>
> Windows is / has steam rolled Linsux right into the trash can where it
> belongs.
>
> Windows 98ME will slam the lid on Linsux once and for all.
>
> Cakewalk (a digital audio/MIDI recording software company) as well as
> the other players in that field are working with Microsoft on the next
> version of Direct-X as well as mp3 technology and several other things I
> can't mention here.
>
> Suffice to say Linux will be put out of it's misery (thank God) very
> soon...
>
> Quick....Name 10 friends that are not programmers / Geeks that you know
> that are running Linux on their desktop....
>
> I can't name 2...
>
>
>
> BTW this CompUSA store has got to be the highest traffic store they
> have... Right in the middle of NYC.... The "Times Square" of computer
> stores if you will....
>
> Linux "The OS that needs CPR right out of the box"
>
>
>
> Claire
>
> "Linux SUcks....Try it for yourself www.cheapbytes.com and see"
I see the exact opposite affect here in Boulder. I have talked to the
manager of CompUSA here and they have a problem keeping linux stocked at
times. They finally started ordering larger pallets of it to keep it
stocked. In the CompUSA here Linux is selling really well. Most of the
employees there know at least a little about linux also. It is probably
because of the college here that it sells so well.
It sells differently in different markets because of the type of market
involved. Assuming one market is like all the others is a logical fallacy
and is made all to often in this group. I have personally helped at least
50 people over the last 6 months install and configure linux on their
machines. Most have upgraded to Mandrake 7.1 now and are very
happy with it.
What I don't understand is that since you are so pro-windows why do you
keep posting in this group? If you don't like linux don't use it but it is
highly doubtful anyone in this group takes you seriously anymore.
Have a nice day.
------------------------------
From: lilo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The dusty Linux shelves at CompUSA
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 04:08:02 GMT
kosh wrote:
> What I don't understand is that since you are so pro-windows why do you
> keep posting in this group? If you don't like linux don't use it but it is
> highly doubtful anyone in this group takes you seriously anymore.
Maybe he is looking to pump up his deflated stock.:-)
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Date: 15 Aug 2000 23:29:41 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
>>>An interesting point I'd like to explore. In my mind, 'support' is
>>>really the only value or service when it comes to consumer computing, if
>>>not simply the most important feature. In the "GPL utopia", I would
>>>think that developers give their software away, simply to provide an
>>>opportunity for them to sell support to those consumers who wish to use
>>>their code.
>>
>>I don't see how this model can be sucessful for most software
>>if the intent is to make money.[...]
>
>Well, in short, its not. The intent is to develop software.
Then why mix it with trying to make money at all? Let people
contribute what work they can.
>While
>there are other ways to do things which allow for more profit, it is my
>opinion that they are essentially profiteering. Most software that
>people use has already been written, and, indeed, many people may feel
>that they already own what they need. If "version churn" is only
>beneficial to the developer and continues to provide increasingly less
>value and increasingly more burden on the consumer, then it shouldn't be
>considered a viable way to make money, IMHO.
It is somewhat unfortunate that there is no real model for
sharing the cost of software development such that members
of a large group could pay some fair amount that comes
out to the amount the work really costs. You don't know
ahead of time what the size of the eventual group of
users might be. If someone foots the whole development
bill and then tries to recover the cost, you end up with
advertising and distribution costs and a lot of generally
horrible decisions aimed at maximizing profits instead
of improving the product. If someone just gives the work
away for free, you end up with no funding for continuing
development and no way to influence future directions.
>>If the software is done
>>correctly it will just work and the users will have no reason
>>to purchase support. If it isn't, then they won't run it
>>in the first place.
>
>The first may be true, but I think the second requires idealistic
>conditions. Then again, the first does, as well. There seems to be
>some perceptual dissonance concerning just what the "reason" for
>technical support is, as well, so if its cogent to your argument, I
>think you should clarify what you mean when you use the term. AFAIK,
>increased information and cognizance would *increase* the demand for
>support, but I don't think bug reports are really the primary purpose of
>technical support.
There are several different types of support. One is to read
the manual over the phone to the end user. That kind is
irrelevant to program development and is better done by
third parties. Another is to make the product do what it claimed
it would do when the claim turns out to be optimistic. This
might involve bug fixes in the code or at least knowledge
beyond what you get from reading the manuals. Another is
to add requested features not originally in the code.
>>It might work for unusual software
>>being written to meet changing needs, or perhaps the support
>>service could include training for the more complicated programs,
>>but if the software needs paid support just for normal operation
>>you have done something wrong.
>
>I can't see why you would think that you have any reason, need, or
>ability to dictate what somebody else's business model must or must not
>be. Though I must agree that in *all* cases, (which makes it rather
>independent of and irrelevant to this discussion) if the software
>*needs* paid support for normal operation, there is something amiss.
I'm not dictating anything - I just don't see why people will
pay for support for programs that work right.
>Then again, I don't see anything wrong upon first examination of the
>idea with giving away software licenses, distributions, or whatever, to
>anyone who wishes to purchase a paid support contract, and making your
>money on support rather than "sales" of software. As for the idea of
>charging for both, it seems likely to be profiteering by my definition.
Why shouldn't an unrelated third party be able to provide support
just as well as the people giving the code away? Or better...
most programmers I know don't like reading the manual to people
over the phone.
>I'm sure many bemoan the fact that it is not a simple definition shared
>by all debaters, but I'm hesitant to even try to clarify it for risk of
>setting up my own straw men which will only result in distraction when
>the trollers start torching them. It certainly involves exorbitant
>profits on goods which would be plentiful but for your own actions. I
>don't find it difficult to consider a distinction between making profit
>through equitable trade in licensing of proprietary, secret,
>copyrighted, or patented capital and profiteering on the same which a
>cognizant and reasonable person could discern.
I don't think a business based on paid support for the same
software they are developing is going to have much incentive
to ever make the software usable without problems that will
make the users need support.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: "Rich C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The dusty Linux shelves at CompUSA
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 01:02:47 -0400
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> A couple of weeks ago I did a little experiment at one of the NYC
> CompUSA stores, I counted the Linux boxes on the shelves and marked
> each one with a fluorescent high lighter to track them.
>
> In 4.5 weeks a grand total of 3 Linux boxes have been sold. This
> includes, RH, SuSE, Corel, Mandrake and the associated "Power Packs".
>
> Pretty dismal if you ask me.....
>
> Three boxes in 4.5 weeks?
>
New Yorkers as a rule don't have time to try Linux. They're too busy adding
deadbolts to their doors.
>
> I'll bet they sell 200 times that of PowderPuff Girls (a kids game for
> Windows).... I saw 3 people on line buying that game the day I was
> there.
>
> I know all the LinoNuts will say everyone is spending hours ftp'ing
> the CD or buying the stripped $1.99 Cheapgarbage version. Or buying
> one CD and sharing it amongst 200 friends (do Linux users even have
> friends?)
>
> I don't believe it...
Believe it. I haven't bought a copy of Linux yet. The first one i got was in
a book (rh5.1.) Then next one I downloaded (rh6.0.) The one I run now
(rh6.2) I got from a friend who got it from a friend.
>
> What I DO believe is that Linux is a dismal failure in the eyes of the
> desktop user. It is dying a slow and miserable death....
>
> Server yes. Geek backroom? Yes.
>
> Desktop?
>
> Forget it...In fact it already HAS been forgotten before it has even
> started.
>
> Windows is / has steam rolled Linsux right into the trash can where it
> belongs.
Hmmm....talked to a friend the other day...he's getting a job for a defense
dept company babysitting a lan. He's an MCSE, and currently the only one I
know who is unemployed. He told me he was going to have to learn UNIX, so
would I help him set up Linux and learn UNIX concepts. It's going to be fun
deprogramming this NT advocate.
>
> Windows 98ME will slam the lid on Linsux once and for all.
They better hurry. They've only got 4 months left. Oh, wait. I forgot.
They've got 999 years and 4 months. Never mind. They might just get it out
in time.
>
> Cakewalk (a digital audio/MIDI recording software company) as well as
> the other players in that field are working with Microsoft on the next
> version of Direct-X as well as mp3 technology and several other things
> I can't mention here.
<snort> It better be true real time (which I seriously doubt) or it will
never be used by serious audio work. Linux has 2 projects going to
incorporate real-time extensions to the kernel, and REAL audio applications
are in the works (but of course I can't mention them here (o;)
>
> Suffice to say Linux will be put out of it's misery (thank God) very
> soon...
>
> Quick....Name 10 friends that are not programmers / Geeks that you
> know that are running Linux on their desktop....
>
> I can't name 2...
>
2 friends or 2 geeks?
>
>
> BTW this CompUSA store has got to be the highest traffic store they
> have... Right in the middle of NYC.... The "Times Square" of computer
> stores if you will....
>
> Linux "The OS that needs CPR right out of the box"
>
>
>
> Claire
>
> "Linux SUcks....Try it for yourself www.cheapbytes.com and see"
Yup. Linux is sucking copies of wimp-dows (OSSM) out of computers left and
right.
--
Rich C.
"Wimp-dows" is an Open Source Service Mark donated freely to the open source
community as an alternative to the over-used expressions "windoze" and
"winblows."
------------------------------
From: "Brian Kirkby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux,comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Notes From The Cathedral #2
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 23:48:27 -0600
Open Source Software is MORE Feature Rich?
check it out:
http://www.themestream.com/gspd_browse/browse/view_article.gsp?c_id=143376
------------------------------
From: Michael Vester <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The dusty Linux shelves at CompUSA
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 23:55:33 -0700
Hi
Steve/Mike/Simon/teknite/keymaster/keys88/"S"/Sponge/Syphon/
"Sewer Rat"/Sarek/steveno/scummer/McSwain/Swango/piddy/
pickle_pete/wazzoo/"leg
log"/mike_hunt/Heather/Amy/claire_lynn/
susie_wong/Ishmeal_hafizi/"Saul Goldblatt"/Proculous/
Tiberious/Jerry_Butler/"Tim Palmer"/BklynBoy/bison/Wobbles/
screwbilk/deadpenguin/"%^$&&&&&&&&&&&&@!!!!!!!!!!!!!.com"/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/etc.
I think you are in need of psychiatric treatment. You express
many symptoms
such as :
1. Multiple personalities (too bad none of them are very
pleasant)
2. Unable to define what gender you are. It is not very
healthy bouncing from one sex to the other one. Pick one and
stay with it.
3. You are extremely obsessed with Linux. Marking boxes of
software with a high lighting pen and monitoring them for 4.5
weeks. There are new medications that might be able to help
you with your obsession.
You should bring print outs of all your news group postings to
a psychiatrist. This will help the psychiatrist determine a
proper course of treatment. Please get help because you are
very ill. This Linux obsession must be a very unpleasant
experience for you since you hate it so much. Psychiatric
medicine has made some remarkable progress dealing with
obsessions. You probably have the first Linux obssesion.
Remember, it is just an operating system and you don't have to
use it.
Michael Vester
(a real name and a real person, not ashamed of being a Linux
advocate)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> A couple of weeks ago I did a little experiment at one of the NYC
> CompUSA stores, I counted the Linux boxes on the shelves and marked
> each one with a fluorescent high lighter to track them.
>
> In 4.5 weeks a grand total of 3 Linux boxes have been sold. This
> includes, RH, SuSE, Corel, Mandrake and the associated "Power Packs".
>
> Pretty dismal if you ask me.....
>
> Three boxes in 4.5 weeks?
>
> I'll bet they sell 200 times that of PowderPuff Girls (a kids game for
> Windows).... I saw 3 people on line buying that game the day I was
> there.
>
> I know all the LinoNuts will say everyone is spending hours ftp'ing
> the CD or buying the stripped $1.99 Cheapgarbage version. Or buying
> one CD and sharing it amongst 200 friends (do Linux users even have
> friends?)
>
> I don't believe it...
>
> What I DO believe is that Linux is a dismal failure in the eyes of the
> desktop user. It is dying a slow and miserable death....
>
> Server yes. Geek backroom? Yes.
>
> Desktop?
>
> Forget it...In fact it already HAS been forgotten before it has even
> started.
>
> Windows is / has steam rolled Linsux right into the trash can where it
> belongs.
>
> Windows 98ME will slam the lid on Linsux once and for all.
>
> Cakewalk (a digital audio/MIDI recording software company) as well as
> the other players in that field are working with Microsoft on the next
> version of Direct-X as well as mp3 technology and several other things
> I can't mention here.
>
> Suffice to say Linux will be put out of it's misery (thank God) very
> soon...
>
> Quick....Name 10 friends that are not programmers / Geeks that you
> know that are running Linux on their desktop....
>
> I can't name 2...
>
> BTW this CompUSA store has got to be the highest traffic store they
> have... Right in the middle of NYC.... The "Times Square" of computer
> stores if you will....
>
> Linux "The OS that needs CPR right out of the box"
>
> Claire
>
> "Linux SUcks....Try it for yourself www.cheapbytes.com and see"
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Microsoft MCSE
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 01:30:33 -0500
"Perry Pip" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >Tell it to IBM, who defined the title Systems Engineer 30+ years ago.
IBM's
> >title does not require what you claim it does.
>
> I just checked IBM's certification page and they don't seem to
> have a "IBM certified systems engineer" certification.
It's not a certification per se. It's a title, which is given to an IBM
employee or business partner employee after having completed a certain
amount of IBM sponsored training. It's not a generic certification.
Hell, they may not even use the title anymore, but they did up to about 3
years ago.
> And with thousand of degreed Electrical, Computer, Mechanical,
> Chemical and Industrial Engineers engineers working for IBM I can see
> why they don't bastardize the title Engineer. When they originally
> coined the term Systems Engineer in the '60's I beleive they were
> refering to people with electrical and computing engineering
> backgrounds.
Well, as a rule, in the 60's pretty much anyone who could work on computers
was an engineer of some kind.
I know that in the early 90's they were giving the title to people without
degrees. My friend was an OS/2 specialist with a technical school diploma,
and he was one of the youngest SE's IBM had ever christened (21) at the
time.
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Is the GDI-in-kernel-mode thing really so bad?... (was Re: Anonymous
Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates)
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 01:33:59 -0500
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8ncejp$4ip$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> Erik Funkenbusch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:KZem5.5624$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>
> > Hmm.. it's been a while since I used fvwm, but IIRC, fvwm doesn't
provide
> an
> > actual "desktop" that you can drag files or icons onto.
>
> To what benefit is that? That is just a different way of implementeing
the
> activation of the menu by clicking on the open desktop. I doubt that
would
> convince very many people to switch. Next?
Are you following this discussion? The question was asked, what
functionality did explorer provide that fvwm did not. I am answering.
------------------------------
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.advocacy) via:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
ftp.funet.fi pub/Linux
tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux
sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux
End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
******************************
