Linux-Advocacy Digest #787, Volume #28 Fri, 1 Sep 00 01:13:03 EDT
Contents:
Re: How low can they go...? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Sherman Act vaguery [was: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?] (Darin Johnson)
Re: How low can they go...? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Anybody Wanna Fuck My Virgin Whiteboy Ass? (Black Dragon)
Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome! (Gary Hallock)
Re: How low can they go...? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: How low can they go...? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: How low can they go...? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: How low can they go...? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: How low can they go...? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E. Ballard
says Linux growth stagnating (T. Max Devlin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 00:07:24 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Simon Cooke in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>
>"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> A de facto conviction. Let's see, that's WinModems, WinME pricing, and
>> 'upgrade' packaging....
>
>WinModems aren't Microsoft's invention.
Neither was IE, or USB, or Media Player, or DVD, or upgrade packaging,
or [insert name of Microsoft product here]. You're mixing metaphors.
I'm not listing Microsoft inventions or products, I'm listing anti-trust
violations.
--
T. Max Devlin
-- Such is my recollection of my reconstruction
of events at the time, as I recall. Consider it.
Research assistance gladly accepted. --
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
======= Over 80,000 Newsgroups = 16 Different Servers! ======
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sherman Act vaguery [was: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?]
From: Darin Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 03:58:28 GMT
T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> You'll only have the money to pay the fines if it works, and
> even *attempting* to monopolize is enough to convict you.
Attempting is not illegal. In fact, just *being* a monopoly is
perfectly legal too. It's only when you use your monopoly power to
influence other market areas that anti-trust acts come into play.
(well, that and also various unfair practices designed to maintain
the monopoly against encroaching competitors)
> No, its illegal as soon as you even attempt to get it:
>
> "the Court concludes that Microsoft maintained its monopoly power by
> anticompetitive means and attempted to monopolize the Web browser
> market, both in violation of § 2."
Nope, this explicitly says that Microsoft already had ONE monopoly,
and was attempting to use that in order to gain a SECOND monopoly.
That's why the first legal tactic of the DOJ was to show there was an
existing monopoly, and the first defense of Microsoft was to try and
deny it.
But the whole area is a complex one, and one that even lawyers and
judges don't agree upon. Plus there are regulatory bodies,
congressional legislation, and legal precedent, that all overlap and
muddy the primary idea. If it was clear, easy to understand, and
unambiguous, there wouldn't be a need for a battery of lawyers, and
there wouldn't be two sides to this argument :-)
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 00:12:38 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Simon Cooke in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
[...]
>> They have paid for it. Everybody has paid for it, multiple times over.
>> You expect them to pay for it again, and yet again, based on a
>> pseudo-legal pretense cloaked in an entreaty for ethical behavior?
>
>Show me the licenses.
What the hell do you mean? I haven't got 'the licenses'. What are you
talking about?
Its like that "What is the frequency, Kenneth" thing. LOL.
Are you saying that 90% of the PCs sold in the last five years don't
have EULA licenses attached to them? Are you claiming that anyone has
ever determined that Microsoft's little "this software is part of the
computer" scam would actually hold up in court? I don't think it would.
I don't have enough to gain, and don't have enough to lose, to test the
matter myself, but it really isn't at all in keeping with the spirit of
Vault v. Quaid, or copyright law, for that matter.
--
T. Max Devlin
-- Such is my recollection of my reconstruction
of events at the time, as I recall. Consider it.
Research assistance gladly accepted. --
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
======= Over 80,000 Newsgroups = 16 Different Servers! ======
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Black Dragon)
Subject: Re: Anybody Wanna Fuck My Virgin Whiteboy Ass?
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 04:20:03 GMT
On 1 Sep 2000 00:13:56 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy,
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> `[EMAIL PROTECTED]' said:
>Hi My Name Is Sean,
>-
>Do you like fucking and then shooting your load into a willing
>asshole? If you do, I'm the guy for you!
>-
>I'm a BiWM, 36 (look younger... have vidcaps) , 5'11", 185#
>with brown hair and goatee. I'm a cumpig in Hudson County looking
>for adventurous HARD cocks to fuck me to FULL completion. I have
>been looking and looking and get just a few responses! Let me
>try for more! I even will swallow totally! Every drop of cum you
>can get into my mouth or deep into my ass... but I do like a
>facial, too!!
>-
>Save your thickest load for me! I want you to blast your thick
>sperm into any of my my open hole! I want to film the action.
>Only your cock and semen will show, and I can promise this! If
>you want, bring a friend. The more cum inside me, the better!
>I am BEYOND FOR REAL and have vidcaps to prove it. Let me know
>you are for real and over 21.If you are in the 201, 908, 732, 212
>or 718 areas, feel free to contact me!!!!
>-
>D/D free, please. I am HIV-, you be, too. Otherwise, condoms for
>anal are a MUST!!!!!
>-
>Straight, Bi, Gay all welcum! All ages and races! Uncut or cut!
>-
>Ram me!
>-
>Email me with your age and location and best dates.
>-
>Love & Kisses,
>-
>Sean
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Steve/Mike/Heather/etc. . .
Close friend of yours?
--
Black Dragon
"Resist militant `normality' -- A mind is a terrible thing to erase."
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 00:22:14 -0400
From: Gary Hallock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome!
"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
> Said Gary Hallock in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
> >"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
> >
> >> I attempted to elicit information, you were reticent. Your problem, not
> >> mine.
> >
> >Nope. Roberto answered your questions. But they weren't the answers you
> >wanted to hear, so you chose to ignore them.
>
> I didn't like them, because there wasn't enough to them to tell if they
> were or were not what I might have wanted to hear, once I figured out
> what it was.
So, you just can't read English then, is that it? Roberto was quite clear.
Ok, Max, why don't you just be honest for once. You have used the same
stupid tactics over and over in this ng:
Step 1. Make totally false and outrageous claims about something your know
nothing about.
Step 2. When someone calls you on it, you get angry and demand that they be
more clear.
Step 3. Insist that you don't have time to look up the truth yourself. It
is now everyone else's responsibility to refute your claims
There is a name for people like you, Max.
>
>
> Why don't you stop whining. If you've got more brilliant ideas than I
> do, how come I'm not reading them, but just more whining?
>
You are the one whining, Max. I'm just have a grand old time laughing at you.
Gary
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 00:31:42 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Simon Cooke in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>> Said Simon Cooke in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
[...]
>No they don't. If anything, Apple controls Sorensen. DivX was (IIRC), JVC.
>DVD is Phillips. DivX and DVD are based on MPEG, and DVD encryption is
>controlled by someone else -- Microsoft licenses their key.
>
>Microsoft does not control any of them.
Yea, and Microsoft doesn't control the SPA or the W3C, either. I'll
believe that when you can prove it. Well, OK. I'll give you the
benefit of the doubt. DVD might be controlled by some *other*
monopolist; its tough to tell them apart, these days. And I'm not sure
why someone said they were 'Microsoft proprietary'. Chances are, they
were a troll. Sorry for the confusion.
>> >> Proprietary file formats: msword, msxcel.
>> >
>> >Documented in MSDN -- certainly, Star Office, AbiWord et al have no
>> >difficulty reading them.
>>
>> PTTHTHTHTHH! "Documented". Ha!
>
>Ha! back at you. Other apps read them fine. Even thinkfree doesn't have any
>problems.
Yes, we know. And then they get to re-read the documentation to keep up
with MS-Churn (tm) if they should ever be so lucky as to establish a
market (temporarily).
>> >> Proprietary programming interfaces: DirectX,Win32.
>> >
>> >Mmmmmm... well, given that any OS will have its own proprietary
>> >programming interfaces, that's a given.
>>
>> Ever heard of POSIX, sweetheart?
>
>Yes. And? Does it define a games programming interface? No. OpenGL is
>supported on Win9x and NT/2000.
On Linux, too. And there we know they're not trying to squelch
cross-platform support. (No, Win9x/NT is not 'cross platform' enough.)
>So program for that and not DirectX -
>problem solved. POSIX is not the answer for everything. Please show me how
>to write a GUI application in POSIX.
OK, POSIX and OpenGL. Keep going. We'll lick this monopoly yet. What
do you have for distributed computing applications and clustering?
>> >> That 'owned' programming interface also restricts the cabal of
>> >> 3rd parties that might otherwise migrate to a new compeitor as
>> >> Oracle or IBM might migrate their databases to Linux.
>> >
>> >Really?
>>
>> Yes, really.
>
>Yeah right.
Yes, right. Why do you want to pretend that Microsoft doesn't obfuscate
their platform to prevent competition? Are you blind?
[...]
>> >Who are you trying to kid? You just claimed that DVD, DivX and Sorenson
>> >encoding were MICROSOFT creations forming a barrier to entry.
>>
>> No, he didn't. Read it again. He said they were proprietary media
>> encodings used to maintain MICROSOFT'S monopoly power. He didn't say
>> anything (that I can see, but I'm new to the thread) about Microsoft
>> *creating* them. I think we all know that Microsoft isn't capable of
>> creating anything, really. At least, not anything more than necessary
>> to maintain their monopoly.
>
>It was YOUR post. YOU made that claim. YOU claimed that DVD, DIVX and
>Sorensen are controlled by Microsoft. They're not. You apparently don't know
>ANYTHING about Media codecs --
No, we're referring to the poster (it was Jedi, actually, and he's a
rather bright guy, so I'm sure he'll be along in a mo to clear things
up) that said these were part of the 'barriers to entry' of a new OS, by
way of 'proprietary media encodings'. You're actually the one that
suggested they might be controlled by Microsoft, by saying that he was
saying that they were Microsoft *owned*. Of course, he never made that
claim, so your saying he did was inaccurate. I was just trying to be
consistent with your premise, that they would have to be owned by
Microsoft in order to be a barrier to entry. Of course, even if they
aren't even Microsoft *controlled*, you see, the point is still valid.
So, yea, I was wrong, but that doesn't make you right, and we've both
had a chance to say something, so I'm fine with that.
I'm told some people get annoyed when I do that. Me, I just wish
everyone else could do it, too.
>DivX is mainly MPEG. DVD is MPEG with encryption and support for menuing.
Thanks for the info.
>> Not that its any different than the USB issue, or the old
>> Kerberos issue, or any of the other mechanisms and specifications
>> Microsoft has tried to control in order to restraint of trade.
>
>Uhuh... so please explain how Microsoft is supposedly restraining trade in
>DVD? I didn't see a Windows logo on my JVC DVD player - or on my friend's
>Sony one. There's no Windows logo on the iMac's DVD player. So explain that.
Well, I might have spent some time explaining why I *thought*, at first,
before I thought about it enough, that Microsoft would be behind DVD
encoding, at least potentially. (That whole Linux cloning thing.) But
since you seem to think that unless there's a Windows logo on your DVD
player, Microsoft can't be using DVD as a barrier to entry somehow, I
won't bother. I don't need to explain it, because its scarcely
comprehensible that you could be so outrageously naive, so obviously
you're just posturing, for lack of any real position.
--
T. Max Devlin
-- Such is my recollection of my reconstruction
of events at the time, as I recall. Consider it.
Research assistance gladly accepted. --
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
======= Over 80,000 Newsgroups = 16 Different Servers! ======
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 00:35:42 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Erik Funkenbusch in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
Pardon me, Erik, but I'm not responding to your post because its rather
late, and I can only entertain one ankle-biter at a time at the moment.
Try to misdirect somebody else's discussion for a little while, nKay?
--
T. Max Devlin
-- Such is my recollection of my reconstruction
of events at the time, as I recall. Consider it.
Research assistance gladly accepted. --
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
======= Over 80,000 Newsgroups = 16 Different Servers! ======
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 00:36:42 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Simon Cooke in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
[...]
>No thanks... I happen to disagree with the findings of fact.
Well, in legal terms (barring any outrageous surprises in the near
future), that would make you "an unreasonable man."
--
T. Max Devlin
-- Such is my recollection of my reconstruction
of events at the time, as I recall. Consider it.
Research assistance gladly accepted. --
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
======= Over 80,000 Newsgroups = 16 Different Servers! ======
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 00:42:57 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Simon Cooke in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
[...]
>Max... Mike doesn't work for Sierra. And Sierra doesn't get *anything* from
>Microsoft. They're Sierra's competitors.
Yes, thanks for clearing that up. My apologies for the mix-up.
How is it, thought that Sierra considers themselves Microsoft's
competitors? I mean, if there's one market that's relatively free of
Microsoft's *direct* attacks, its games. Sure, they screw over game
manufacturers as a "partner", but as a competitor, they suck as much at
making games as they do at making any other software (which in my
opinion, obviously, is a lot.)
But maybe you can enlighten me about the competitive world of software
games; I only know of it from the consumer perspective. And where does
your role come in; are you a coder or something else?
--
T. Max Devlin
-- Such is my recollection of my reconstruction
of events at the time, as I recall. Consider it.
Research assistance gladly accepted. --
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
======= Over 80,000 Newsgroups = 16 Different Servers! ======
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 01:02:13 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Simon Cooke in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
[...]
>But the findings of fact claim that Microsoft is charging too little. So
>which is it, Mr. Devlin? Too much? Too little? Because at the moment, you
>seem to be claiming both.
I thought I made it clear; it isn't whether they are "too much" or "too
little" that makes them monopoly prices. Perhaps it might improve your
ability to comprehend the findings of fact if you tried to understand
why.
The purpose of anti-trust law is to ensure competition. Competition is
necessary because it keeps prices down while ensuring that competitors
are running their businesses as efficiently as necessary to provide
goods at a reasonable price. Exclusion or inhibition of competition
enables a producer to charge *more* than they would if the potentially
lower price of others were to exert competitive pressures to keep them
low. If a producer can charge more because they have monopolized
(worked to exclude competition), then they are charging "monopoly
prices", regardless of how "little" their prices may be.
You'll notice that one of the standard definitions of monopoly, "The
power to control prices or exclude competition," is not stated as "the
power to raise prices." It is the power to *control* prices, (and
monopolization doesn't even require the use of that power.) That
explains why Judge Jackson thought it prudent and cogent to note that
Microsoft charged "too little":
"33. Microsoft enjoys so much power in the market for Intel-compatible
PC operating systems that if it wished to exercise this power solely in
terms of price, it could charge a price for Windows substantially above
that which could be charged in a competitive market."
This is, of course, a prima facia, even a per se, violation of
anti-trust law, but I fear I'd be simply baiting you if I mentioned it.
Oops.
As a potential distraction, let me suggest that another way of looking
at "too little" is to consider dumping. I would agree with you that it
might be incorrect to call that "monopoly pricing", as well, since it is
obviously "attempted monopoly pricing", at least. But there are more
explicit laws against price-fixing. I'm not sure if dumping is handled
under Sherman Act prosecution, and wouldn't regard it as "monopoly
pricing". Not because it is "too little"; a monopoly lowering prices to
deter competition, and supposedly making it up in some other way, is
controlling prices nonetheless. But a company that is dumping is not
controlling prices in the market, they're just charging less than it
costs them to provide the product, in order to control the supply of the
product, eventually. Still restraint of trade, ultimately, but not
quite "monopoly pricing".
--
T. Max Devlin
-- Such is my recollection of my reconstruction
of events at the time, as I recall. Consider it.
Research assistance gladly accepted. --
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
======= Over 80,000 Newsgroups = 16 Different Servers! ======
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E. Ballard
says Linux growth stagnating
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 01:06:51 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Roberto Alsina in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
[...]
>Well, as usual, a little effort goes a long way. For example, it
>gets you... one of the original messages:
You mean if we bug you long enough, you might remember that you have
something to contribute?
>http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-freeqt&m=91244219105556&w=2
>
>Here's a quote:
>
>-----------
>> Many of the developers on this list are afraid that you would hit them with
>> a lawsuit if they complete a toolkit that uses QT's API. Is that true?
>
>I know there has been a lot of discussions around a supposed lawsuit
>threat from Troll Tech. It all comes from a private mail that was sent
>by
>one if us concerning use of the Qt header files and documentation, and
>the
>answer was "We don't know".
>-----------
>
>Now put yourself in Eirik's position. You are asked if you will ever
>sue someone, over usage of your IP. What can he answer????
>
>I can't find that private email however. If anyone has a reference,
>I'll like to have it. I know it was posted on the freeqt list
>at least once.
So we're still paraphrasing. Though if whoever wrote the message above
was authoritative, they don't appear to be preventing anyone from
cloning QT. The question was, however, "Are they doing anything to
promote competition on their API?"
--
T. Max Devlin
-- Such is my recollection of my reconstruction
of events at the time, as I recall. Consider it.
Research assistance gladly accepted. --
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
======= Over 80,000 Newsgroups = 16 Different Servers! ======
------------------------------
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.advocacy) via:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
ftp.funet.fi pub/Linux
tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux
sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux
End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
******************************
