Linux-Advocacy Digest #982, Volume #28 Thu, 7 Sep 00 19:13:06 EDT
Contents:
Re: A guise for Marxism (Was: businesses are psychopaths (Perry Pip)
Re: philosophy is better than science (Perry Pip)
Re: businesses are psychopaths (Perry Pip)
Re: SmartShip needs multiple platforms (Was: Am I the only one that finds this just
a little scary? (Perry Pip)
Re: [OT] Public v. Private Schools (Rick)
Re: [OT] Public v. Private Schools (Rick)
Metcalfe on Linux (Marshall Price)
Re: [OT] Public v. Private Schools (Rick)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Perry Pip)
Crossposted-To:
comp.infosystems.gis,comp.infosystems.www.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: A guise for Marxism (Was: businesses are psychopaths
Date: 7 Sep 2000 22:14:13 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On 05 Sep 2000 12:04:53 +0100,
Phillip Lord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Its perfectly reasonable to say that both anarchism and
>Marxism are extreme, left wing, and revolutionary ideologies, but this
>does not make them the same thing.
>
The ideas expressed in anarchism look to me like the came right out of
the writings a Marx and Engel. Unless they have another source as to
where their ideas originated, then anarchism is a hybrid of Marxism.
> Perry> The fundamental problem is that any time a country tries this
> Perry> bullshit the ideal of anarchy inevitably fails, and
> Perry> totalitarian state socialism ensues to fill the vacuum.
>
> Where is the inevitability about this? Stalinism didn't
>happen as a result of inevitable historical forces. Possibly the
>activities of the white army had something to do with it. They may
>have lost but they still fatally wounded the Russian revolution.
>
History has shown anytime there is a vacuum of power someone fills
it. People want to be led. History has shown that all forms of marxism
fail.
> Perry> What anarchists fail to admit to themselves is that humanity
> Perry> is not yet socially evolved enough for a very large society
> Perry> without some form of controlled hierarchy.
>
> They fail to admit this, probably because they do not think
>that it is correct.
They fail make plain observations of human behavior.
>What you are saying here appears to me is that
>they we can only have a society based around inequality and enforced
>by main force. I do not accept this, and hope that I never do.
There is no evidence your philosophy will result in more equality.
Even if you had perfectly equality, someone would whine and say they
are not getting a fair share. And what you condone is that they take
it violently?
>
> Perry> If it comes, it will come thru improved communication and
> Perry> understanding of one another.
>
> So if we just talk lots eventually at the top of the
>"controlled hierarchy" will say "good grief, you are right, we can
>have an egalitarian democratic society"
There is certainly more chances of that than your system of violently
forcing people to be altruistic. If you think violence is acceptable,
then anyone can justifiably resort to that when they don't get their way.
Then society becomes barbaric, not civilized at all. We currently have a
democratic system. If you think your system is better, convince
the people and they will vote it in. Problem is you can't convince
them, so you need violently force it, right??
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Perry Pip)
Crossposted-To:
comp.infosystems.gis,comp.infosystems.www.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: philosophy is better than science
Date: 7 Sep 2000 22:14:20 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On 05 Sep 2000 18:49:37 +0100,
Phillip Lord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>>>>> "Perry" == Perry Pip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> >> This is not necessarily the fault of the individuals as its built
> >> into the class system by which we run our society.
>
> Perry> There no "class system" in our society. It's a capitalist
> Perry> system.
>
> Yes. As I am sure you know the "free market" or "capitalism"
>was more or less invented at the turn of 19th Century in my country
>(the UK). It took over from the previous system which was essentially
>a weak form of a feudal hierarchy. The invention of capitalism changed
>some of the faces in the class system but thats about all. I think in
>the short term it actually intensified the inequities of the class
>system if that was possible, causing the whole sale destruction of
>many long standing communities and their ways of life.
OK, so the British are fuedelists trying to be capitalist. The U.S.is
rugged individualists trying to be capitalist. There are no class
lines in the U.S.other than what people arbitrarily conceptualize,
only an uneven distribution of wealth.
> Both the terms "resource" and "asset" carry with them some
>concept of property ownership. Applied to humans this does of course
>carry imply exploitation.
Words do not imply exploitation. I at times use my coworkers as a
resource and they use me as a resource. We help each other with our
work, and work together as a team. We don't expliot each other. A high
school baseball team has a great relief pitcher, who is a big asset to
the team. In order to win the championship, the coach will use every
resourse he has to win, inlcuding that relief pitcher. How is he being
exploited simply because those words are used?
I had an employer that I felt was exploiting me several years back. I
quit and went to work elsewhere.
>
> >> The fact that we do ascribe so many human rights to corporations
> >> is a sign that of the strangeness of our society.
>
> Perry> A corporation is a group of humans, as have rights as such.
>
> A corporation is a specific legal entity. There are lots of
>ways you can get a group of humans. A family. A crowd at football
>match. These are not corporations.
>
And as groups of humans they are ascribed human rights in the U.S. A
group of humans can file a lawsuit for example. A non-profit group can
incorporate in the U.S., and not pay taxes as long as they remain
non-profit.
>
> You miss my point I think. Most of the important medical and
>engineering advances that have changed our lives are based upon work
>from 40, 50 or 100 years ago.
Microwave ovens?? Microcomputers?? Satellite communications?? ATM
machines?? Cell phones?? Open heart surgery?? Cancer prevention,
detection and treatment?? Orthepedic surgery?? Eye surgery??
Hundreds of new medications on the market every year?? Cleaner
burning automobiles?? Safer air travel?? Velcro?? Teflon?? The list
goes on and on. Maybe you aren't noticing these advances in the U.K.,
but the U.S. and the rest of the world is moving foward. In the
U.S. even lower income people have cell phones. I read an article
yesterday that 2 million people in Korea have high speed internet
connections: DSL, Cable modem, or apartment LAN connections. But you
can't get a high speed connection in the UK, and you pay by the minute
for a modem connection. How backward indeed.
>We spent a lot less money than we do
>know.
^(now??).
Have you calculated that as a percentage of GNP's. Have you considered
all the R&D expense by the German, U.S. and other militaries??
> Perry> Our society (the U.S.) is one of the few that strives to give
> Perry> everyone the opportunity to acchieve their full potential.
>
> You society is one which venerates the illusion of this ideal
>above all others maybe. It would appear to me that the history of the
>US is entirely one a class struggle, from its beginnings in a
>bourgeois revolution,
Now that's a bunch a communist propaganda bullshit. A bourgeois
revolution?? No, the American revolution was a revolt against a
controlling Monarchy that taxed it's colonies without any democratic
represention. If anything, you can credit the American revolution for
as first in bringing the ancient concept of human rights into a
lasting political doctrine.
>through its slave period, through its civil
>rights conflict.
Sure, and labor revolts and war protests too, but not a marxist or
anarchist class struggle.
>
> Have I achieved my potential? In many ways I think that I
>have. I have a list of qualifications as long as my arm. I have been
>educated at some of the best universities in the world. I have learnt
>to program computers and do it well, I have learn molecular biology. I
>know some maths, physics, chemistry. I have read Shakespeare, Milton,
>Marx, Hardy, and even J.K.Rowling. I can play several instruments, and
>am a regular gigging musician. I am still a young man and have a lot
>yet to give and learn.
>
> Despite all of this, because I am not in one of the favoured
>professions, because I am a scientist rather than a stock broker, I
>still have difficulty keeping a roof over my head.
Anybody who can program computers well can definitely keep a roof
over his head in the U.S., and do almost as well as a stock broker.
But, anyways, you say above that too much is spent on technology,
so why do you expect a job as a scientist?? Why should society
bear the cost of a smart person like you pursuing what is interesting
to him and not what is usefull to society?? Reading Shakespeare won't
feed the poor. Some who have read Marx have killed tens of millions.
> Still I have had many opportunities in life, and I have made
>use of them. If you think however that this are given to everyone,
>then you should spend time as I have living, or working in area's like
>Tottenham, or Moss Side, or Toxteth. I have friends who grew up with
>coats on their beds to keep warm, whose parents used to miss meals so
>that they could eat. I know children who can't read at 10, because
>they have not been to school yet. And when they do, they have no
>teacher because the none will work at the school.
Well that's a UK problem. It's not quite that bad in the U.S., they
can find people to teach in the schools, and all can start school
around 6. Perhaps the U.K. needs some social revolutions like the
U.S. has had. Not communism though, just take a look at Russia and
Cuba.
>I will pass on your
>advice that this is because of their or their parents failings.
Well who's failing is it?? Why did their parents have children when
they didn't have the economic capacity to raise them? I don't know
about the U.K., but in the U.S. the poor are popping out more babies
than anyone else. It's as if poor poeple have some inalienable right
to propagate as much of their DNA as they want at the expense of those
who are more responsible. And look at some of the worlds poorest
countries, i.e. in Africa. I think the first thing the poor need to
learn is to stop popping out so many babies. When they get that
message, than maybe wealthier poeple can consider helping
them. Otherwise, any attempt to help is futile, and why should people
waste their money trying to change something they can't.
>I am
>sure that they will be fascinated.
They need to learn from their parents mistakes so that they don't
repeat them with their children. No??
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Perry Pip)
Crossposted-To:
comp.infosystems.gis,comp.infosystems.www.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: businesses are psychopaths
Date: 7 Sep 2000 22:14:29 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Tue, 05 Sep 2000 20:19:28 GMT,
Richard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>Psychopaths compose 1% of the general population, 10-25%
>of the prison population and 50% of cop killers.
And 99.94% of those espounding philosophies on Usenet:-)
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Perry Pip)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: SmartShip needs multiple platforms (Was: Am I the only one that finds
this just a little scary?
Date: 7 Sep 2000 22:14:37 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Mon, 04 Sep 2000 18:44:31 -0400,
T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>I've already explained why your 'they ought to do an
>embedded system' is just entirely misguided.
I've always advocated using COTS mil-spec embedded controllers for real time
control of the machinery and a more general purpose OS
(also COTS and mil-spec) for user interfaces and other applications.
How is that misguided??
Do you have any experience working with complex
control systems, embedded systems, or with mil-spec's??
Perry
------------------------------
From: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Public v. Private Schools
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 18:53:29 -0400
"Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
>
> Rick wrote:
> >
> > "Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
> > >
> > > ZnU wrote:
> > > >
> > > > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Aaron R. Kulkis"
> > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Rick wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Rick wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Rick wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Joe R." wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Courageous
> > > > > > > > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > But a better thing would be to make the public schools at
> > > > > > > > > > > > > least as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > good as the private schools. I believe, perhaps naively,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > that this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > can be done; and even more naively, that it isn't simply
> > > > > > > > > > > > > a matter of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > money.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > It's much a matter of money; halving the class sizes
> > > > > > > > > > > > requires doubling
> > > > > > > > > > > > the number of teachers, for example.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If you believe that class size is the only thing wrong with
> > > > > > > > > > > the schools,
> > > > > > > > > > > of course.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > It is by no means the only thng wrong, but is a large part in
> > > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > areas.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Please explain why the best universities in the world routinely
> > > > > > > > > put their students through classes where the material is taught
> > > > > > > > > in lectures where the class size is in the HUNDREDS.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Generally speak, those universities attract better students. Those
> > > > > > > > students have learned how to learn.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > BINGO.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Now, tell me why the public schools currently do everything they
> > > > > > > can to PREVENT students from learning how to learn.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ***WE*** do not.
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh, really. Then why do American high school students' science and math
> > > > > scores ABSOLUTELY SUCK compared to the rest of the industrialized world,
> > > > > including such backwards places as Russia.
> > > >
> > > > Let's review:
> > > >
> > > > 1) American high school students' science and math scores are lower than
> > > > average for industrialized nations.
> > > > 2) Virtually every other industrialized nation has an educational system
> > > > significantly more socialistic than ours.
> > > > 3) BUT! The US educational system is secretly in the control of
> > > > Communists!
> > >
> > > The NEA is a thoroughly marxist organization deliberately sabotaging
> > > the public schools.
> > >
> >
> > You are an entirely one note song. Have you ever belonged to NEA? Is you
> > hero Tailgunner Joe?
>
> Are you saying that the NEA is not the source of every fucked-up
> education fad that's come down the pike the last 30 years?
>
It is not.
> >
> > > > 4) So the only way to improve US education is to privatize it, moving
> > > > _away_ from the way more successful countries do things.
> > >
> > > No..the way to improve the US schools is to get the kids OUT of the
> > > control of those who seek to make sure that they are incapable of
> > > learning anything on their own.
> > >
> >
> > Who do you htink passed the laws and policies governing education today?
> > The NEA doesnt pass laws. It doesn make educational policy.
>
> Ever notice how the NEA got the school elections moved to a different
> day from the general elections? That way, they can make sure that
> *their people* are disproportionately represented at the polls.
>
What? Where does this happen?
> >
> > > >
> > > > Are we supposed to take you seriously?
> > >
> > > Open your eyes, blind man.
> > >
> >
> > Take your own advice.
> >
--
Rick
* To email me remove theobvious from my address *
------------------------------
From: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Public v. Private Schools
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 18:58:48 -0400
"Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
>
> Rick wrote:
> >
> > ZnU wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Aaron R. Kulkis"
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Rick wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > "Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Rick wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Rick wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Joe R." wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Courageous
> > > > > > > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > But a better thing would be to make the public schools at
> > > > > > > > > > > > least as
> > > > > > > > > > > > good as the private schools. I believe, perhaps naively,
> > > > > > > > > > > > that this
> > > > > > > > > > > > can be done; and even more naively, that it isn't simply
> > > > > > > > > > > > a matter of
> > > > > > > > > > > > money.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > It's much a matter of money; halving the class sizes
> > > > > > > > > > > requires doubling
> > > > > > > > > > > the number of teachers, for example.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If you believe that class size is the only thing wrong with
> > > > > > > > > > the schools,
> > > > > > > > > > of course.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It is by no means the only thng wrong, but is a large part in
> > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > areas.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Please explain why the best universities in the world routinely
> > > > > > > > put their students through classes where the material is taught
> > > > > > > > in lectures where the class size is in the HUNDREDS.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Generally speak, those universities attract better students. Those
> > > > > > > students have learned how to learn.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > BINGO.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now, tell me why the public schools currently do everything they
> > > > > > can to PREVENT students from learning how to learn.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ***WE*** do not.
> > > >
> > > > Oh, really. Then why do American high school students' science and math
> > > > scores ABSOLUTELY SUCK compared to the rest of the industrialized world,
> > > > including such backwards places as Russia.
> > >
> > > Let's review:
> > >
> > > 1) American high school students' science and math scores are lower than
> > > average for industrialized nations.
> >
> > Also... lets not forget... in many other nations, students are "tracked"
> > into areas in which they supposedly have a aptitude... by passing "high
> > school" and many of those standardized test. in other words... in the US
> > every student gets tested... in many other nations the students being
> > tested are of a higher level.
>
> Let's ALSO not forget that American schools did this ALSO, until
> the fucking NEA branded it "devisive".
>
.. and you expect to be taken seriously by who?
> >
> > Lets look at Japan, where students have a snese of responsiobility.. so
> > high in fact the suicide rates are higher. It was this very nation that
> > was supposed to produce the "5th generation computer' that would
> > revolutionize computing. They didnt.
>
> Some people drive to fast and kill themselves by wrapping their car
> around a tree at 120mph...therefore, nobody should drive???
>
You missed the point... again.
> >
> > > 2) Virtually every other industrialized nation has an educational system
> > > significantly more socialistic than ours.
> >
> > True. And students progress differently.
>
> So why do American students progress so much more slowly than everyone
> else?
>
Again, the statistics are not being correctly read. In the US, we have a
totally open door policy in public schools. Everyone goes. Everyone
tests. This is not so in many other countries.
> >
> > > 3) BUT! The US educational system is secretly in the control of
> > > Communists!
> >
> > We are? I wonder if I can get a trip to China?
>
> The NEA is sabotaging the schools. See comment after paragraph (1)
>
It is not. Talk to the people elected to public office by parents.
> >
> > > 4) So the only way to improve US education is to privatize it, moving
> > > _away_ from the way more successful countries do things.
> > >
> >
> > Or... lets compare student groups.. or top 10%, middle, bottom, versus
> > "theirs.
>
> We consistantly lag...no matter what category you choose.
>
Do we. Show me or top %5 is worse than others' top 5%.
> >
> > > Are we supposed to take you seriously?
> > >
> >
> > Um, you've taken him seriously?
> >
> > > [snip]
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Rick
> >
> > * To email me remove theobvious from my address *
>
-- obnoxiously long signature removed --
--
Rick
* To email me remove theobvious from my address *
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marshall Price)
Subject: Metcalfe on Linux
Date: 7 Sep 2000 22:34:40 GMT
Bob Metcalfe, a columnist at www.infoworld.com who's resigning soon --
and one of the leading figures in Internet history -- said on "The Diane
Rehm Show" recently that Linux "doesn't do much" besides running Internet
servers on PC's, if I heard correctly.
I've spent many long and frustrating hours trying to figure out what
Linux is all about, and might have gone on indefinitely if I hadn't heard
this bit of information.
Is it true?
--
Marshall Price of Miami, Florida I'm voting for John Hagelin
[EMAIL PROTECTED] : "Oh, to unfree one's heaven!"
------------------------------
From: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Public v. Private Schools
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 19:03:06 -0400
"Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
>
> Rick wrote:
> >
> > "Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
> > >
> > > Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, 06 Sep 2000 21:57:23 -0400, Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
> > > > >Rick wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > > > >> ***WE*** do not.
> > > > >
> > > > >Oh, really. Then why do American high school students' science and math
> > > > >scores ABSOLUTELY SUCK compared to the rest of the industrialized world,
> > > > >including such backwards places as Russia.
> > > >
> > > > I thought we'd already discussed this.
> > > >
> > > > If you want to make meaningful comparisons between the performance of
> > > > American and Russian *high schools*, you obviously need to control
> > > > for the ability of the incoming students.
> > >
> > > Since said *ability* of American students is significantly held down
> > > in junior high, the comparisons are meaningless.
> > >
> >
> > So, education expert, please explain tracking of students ... "high
> > school", university, vocational school, then tell me which of those
> > stuydents are tested using "standard" acedemic tests and compre the
> > tracking/testing of other countries to that of the US.
>
> In practically every other country (and the US up until the 1970's),
> it was common to track students FROM ELEMENTARY SCHOOL.
>
> I was in fast-track classes up until attending Purdue...and then
> taking engineering at Purdue...the entire SCHOOL is fast track.
>
That was still no where near what is being done in other countries.
> >
> > I will give you a clue. In the US, public schools (through secondary)
> > have an open enrollment policy. Everyone goes. Most public colleges have
> > a more or less open enrollment.
>
> That's still no excuse for putting the smart kids and the idiots
> in the same room, and expecting them to all learn at the same rate.
>
You have real problem with equal rights, dont you. Have you ever heard
of discrimination?
> NO other country does this on a universal scale like the NEA-controlled
> public schools.
>
You are still a one note song, and its off key at that. You obviously
know nothing about the NEA.
-- obnoxiously long signature wnipped --
--
Rick
* To email me remove theobvious from my address *
------------------------------
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.advocacy) via:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
ftp.funet.fi pub/Linux
tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux
sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux
End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
******************************
