Linux-Advocacy Digest #714, Volume #29 Tue, 17 Oct 00 23:13:06 EDT
Contents:
Re: sysadmin == secondary role (Was: Astroturfing (.)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? ("Les Mikesell")
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Astroturfing ("Les Mikesell")
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (Mike Byrns)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (.)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: sysadmin == secondary role (Was: Astroturfing
Date: 18 Oct 2000 02:46:56 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy Perry Pip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 17 Oct 2000 08:12:41 GMT,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>In comp.os.linux.advocacy Perry Pip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> On 16 Oct 2000 16:35:11 -0500,
>>> Drestin Black <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>"Perry Pip" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>>>>news:8sd7b3$1vd$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>>>>> In article <39e7dbae$0$42822$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>>>>> "Drestin Black" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > > Conversely, I've never met a 3rd year computer engineering
> student
>>>>> who had
>>>>> > > a hope in the world of making more money than a 17 year old
> sysadmin
>>>>> in
>>>>> > boston.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > amazingly, I concur with abracadabra on this one.
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> In your wet dreams, Dristan.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>wow - truth hurts? Dristan - that was almost funny...
>>>>
>>
>>> Like we've never seen this before. A drop out attempting to diminish
>>> the value of a good education because he couldn't make the grade
>>> himself. No different from the fact he attempts to diminish Unix
>>> because he can't handle actually learning it.
>>
>>> Why don't you provide some data to back up your claim, Alex. Show me
>>> some stats to show the average MCSE with no college education at all
>>> makes more than the average Purdue Engineering graduate. For that
>>> matter, simply show the average MSCE makes more than the average EE.
>>
>>I said "sysadmin", moron, not "MCSE". Sysadmins routinely make between
>>65 and 95k, and often make over 100. And they need *never* have been
>>to college.
> Instead of blowing hot air why don't you provide some real data.
> According to the SANS 1999 survey which you can get from
> http://www.sans.org/sal99.htm
> Average sysadmin: $54,660.
> 54% w/ college degrees. 20% w/ some college.
> Those with degrees averaging $5000 more than those without.
I didnt say "average", polesmoker.
> And from EETimes: http://www.eetimes.com/salarysurvey/1999/money.html
> Average EE: $75,500
Again, I didnt say "average". I said "routine", because I wasnt planning
on offering "average" figures.
> That's a 20K difference.
Real life contains substantially greater exceptions.
> Moreover, you sysadmin types need to get your head out of the clouds
> and realize your job is nothing but a secondary role. Whether it is
> desktop PC's or supercomputers your job is merely to keep the machines
> running securely. It's the people who actually use the machines to
> produce a product are playing the primary role in a business. When the
> machines don't run, the shit hits the fan and the sysadmins hear
> it. When the machines do run the cutomers forget who the sysadmins
> are. How is that any different from being an HVAC mechanic? The only
> way to really do well as a sysadmin is to be a consultant. Othewise,
> it's a thankless job.
Oh, I dont know about that. The nice thing about being a sysadmin is
being generally non-disposable.
You say youd like to recieve *all* of your email? Be nice to the
sysadmin.
> This thread was about MCSE's, btw. You switched it to sysadmin.
Read the thread again. I wasnt the one who switched it.
>>And I didnt say "engineering graduate", you idiot, I said "3rd year
>>computer engineering student".
> You also said 17 year old sysadmin, which makes your whole statement
> meaningless.
You must be an MCSE, because elementary logic has escaped you completely.
>>> The only reason MSCE's have any decent salary data at all is because
>>> many of them actually do have college degrees.
>>
>>I see you dont work in the field.
> Most MCSE's have degrees, and they tend to be higher paid than the
> ones who don't. From MPC magazines MCSE survey (1999):
> http://www.mcpmag.com/members/99jul/charts.asp?cid=37
Neat. Maybe I should go get one.
> As far as whether I "work in the field", I wouldn't want to. I'm an
> aerospace engineer working in an avionics lab on a research
> prototype. We have an onsite contractor who does our sysadmin work for
> our offices and many of the machines in our labs. A few specialized
> machines we do oursevles. I appreciate the work the sysadmins do. I
> appreciate the mechanic who fixes my car as well. But both are generally
> thankless jobs.
Be nice to them if you know whats good for you. :)
=====.
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:17:22 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Ermine Todd in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>Bogus ... when pressed to actually demonstrate anything that could validate
>this claim, no one single shred of evidence was able to be presented.
You sound like a creationist insisting that evolution is 'just a
theory', to be honest.
>The
>facts remain that the price difference was almost always less than 20% [...]
Please provide:
A) one single shred of evidence that this is true, or, alternatively
B) one single shred of evidence that less than 20% wasn't enough to
remove any commercial feasibility to refusing Microsoft's per-processor
licensing agreements. (Remember; these were the 'old style' ones, which
covered every PC the OEM sold, not just a specific product line, the way
the current generation of PPLs do.)
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
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From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:21:05 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Weevil in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
[...]
>This scenario was repeated over and over with the large OEMs of the time.
>It's all there in publically available court documents. A lot of it is
>online.
But finding the details is a less trivial task than you make it seem,
Weevil, I have to admit. Could you provide some urls?
[...]
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
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------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 02:56:10 GMT
"JS/PL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> > > Not to mention that MS got their foot
> > > into the business by offering the lowest price on an OS. The few other
> OS
> > > companies all decided the best route would be gouging. MS offered a
very
> > low
> > > cost OS, they won due to competitor stupidity. Get over it.
> >
> > Perhaps you slept through the lengthy court process that disclosed the
> > truth,
> > which differs from your account...
>
> Are you denying that the IBM personal computers were offered with PC-DOS,
> CP/M-86 and the UCSD p-System, operating systems?
In 1995? Not from any vendor I remember.
> If any of these others had been accepted as the standard on which to write
> applications you'd be whining about that company.
Of course - competition is what makes things work. Lose it and the
remaining vendor never has to fix its bugs or drop its prices.
> The lengthy court process you speak of was niether lengthy, nor a legal
> process, it was unbeleivably short at the same time expanded well beyond
the
> scope of the original complaint, due to the fact that it was obvious the
DOJ
> was getting nowhere fast on the original complaint. Many parts of your
> coveted legal process are about to be found to be an "illegal process".
I see. I guess the taxpayers could have saved a lot of money by just
asking your opinion instead.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:28:51 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said JS/PL in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>"Weevil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
[...]
>> 8086 - $6
>> 80286 - $10
>> 80386 - $16
>> 80486 - $16
>>
>> This came out to a weighted average of $8.22. At the time, Commodore was
>> paying $11, so this was a nice break for them. However, Microsoft then
>> informed them that without the per processor agreement, they would be
>> charged a flat $30 per copy, regardless of processor.
>>
>> Naturally, Commodore signed.
>
>$30.00 on a $2500.00 PC isn't exactly what I'd call a make or break amount.
>If what you say is true a $19.00 hike in what they were paying wouldn't be a
>burden of any consequence (8/10ths of a percent of the cost of a typical
>system).
Resisting with all my might the urge to point out the rather pathetic
lack of reason you display (oops!), I will point out to those who may
not notice it that it makes a hell of a difference when your
competitor's system is $2490, and people buy on price, as we all know
they do, particularly with a 'commodity' product such as a PC.
Nevertheless, its interesting that what you previously insisted was a
20% increase is now a 270% increase, which you know feel compelled to
compare to the price of the entire system in order to make it appear
small.
What a maroon. (Oops.)
><paste>
>
>Microsoft began offering per processor licenses at some point in the late
>1980s at the request of OEMs who wanted to simplify the administration of
>their per system licenses. (Kempin FTC Testimony (Exh. 9) at 96-97; Hosogi
>Dep. (Exh. 8) at 27-28; Lum Dep. (Exh. 6) at 82; Fade Dep. (Exh. 7) at
>103-07.) Because OEMs generally change microprocessors much less frequently
>than they change other components of their systems, a per processor license
>decreased the number of contract amendments that had been necessary under a
>per system license due to system changes. [...]
And what precisely does the processor have to do with the price of DOS?
Why should the contracts mention anything at all about the hardware
changes? Do you mean to say that Microsoft was, even then, trying to
tell OEMs how they could manufacture *their* (the OEM's) products?
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
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------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:32:54 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Erik Funkenbusch in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> Said Erik Funkenbusch in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>> >"Shane Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>> [...]
>> >It's very clear that Windows is extremely intimate with DOS, and it does
>so
>> >in ways that are more than the documented int 21h interface. Whatever
>MS's
>> >other reasons or wants, they do have a legitimate reason to test. They
>> >can't guarantee safe operation on non MS-DOS. They're the ones that will
>> >get the support call when Windows 3.1 fails because of a problem with
>their
>> >competitors DOS.
>>
>> Excuse me, but Windows 3.1 does not compete with DOS. That is
>> important, whether you want to recognize it or not.
>
>And telephone equipment manufacturers don't compete with the phone company
>either, that doesn't stop them from putting disclaimers on the phones that
>warn them not to use the equipment in unsupported phone systems.
I've never seen such a thing, and don't really understand what the hell
you're talking about when you say 'unsupported phone systems'; all
subscriber lines in the U.S. are standardized; a legacy of the 'Ma Bell'
years, when AT&T was allowed to be a public utility. It certainly
doesn't have anything to do with the fact that Windows 3.1 did not
compete with DOS, and therefore Microsoft's refusal to support somebody
else's DOS because they were a 'competitor' was blatantly and obviously
anti-competitive, and illegal.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
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------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Astroturfing
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 03:05:41 GMT
"Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:6BYG5.11100$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Ian Davey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "JS/PL"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > >> When I said use your brain, I meant use it, not repeat the same stuff
in
> > >> detail. There is probably something very badly wrong with your
> > >> installation. C corrupted filesystem or a bad harddisk or something.
> > >> There are kernel options to allow Linux to see more memory.
> > >> Try mem=256M or something like it.
> > >
> > >That's the point, my objective isn't to hack the kernel, it is to
insert a
> > >disk, hover over the return key for a few minutes and have the thing
work in
> >
> > You don't need to hack the kernel, there's a point in the Mandrake 7.1
install
> > where you get to enter how much memory you have. All you do is amend the
> > 64MB value in the text box and change it to 256MB. Not rocket science.
>
> But be careful!
>
> If you install on an box with an Intel 810 chipset, it's usually 1 less
> than the MB you have installed. 128? No... 127. 256? No... 255 or 254
> Otherwise? Kernel panic! There's quality software for you.
Neat! How many Microsoft people are paid to do research on Linux's
weak points?
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: Mike Byrns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 03:09:53 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 06:09:26 GMT, Mike Byrns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >Weevil wrote:
> >
> >> Mike Byrns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> > http://www.gallup.com/poll/indicators/indMicrosoft.asp
> >> >
> >> > Also see the related analysis links at the bottom of that page.
> >> >
> >> > That being read, it seems that the boss is winning points for giving
> >> people
> >> > their choice of operating systems at work. As it should be. They made
> >> that
> >> > choice at home.
> >>
> >> People use whatever comes on their computer. They don't "choose" one
> >> operating system over another, especially when they're not even aware of a
> >> choice.
> >
> >So they don't read the front page or watch the news? They all know they can buy
> >a Mac or get Linux for their PCs. There just not interested because Windows
> >satisfies them. Reference the Gallup poll.
>
> ...then they have to be bailed out by some Linux user because the
> local WinDOS user can't even hook up a SCSI chain properly.
>
And here again is that famous Linux user superiority complex that is SURE to put off
almost every computer user on the planet. The average computer user does not have
external SCSI peripherals or internal ones for that matter. The average computer
user will call the technical support line for the item they bought, not spend hours
digging through newsgroups or in irc trying to find someone willing to help. That's
why people pay for software -- they expect service after the sale -- not the
possibility that someone will have had their same problem and will be willing to help
them with it. It does NOT happen as frequently as the Penguinistas purport.
> [deletia]
>
> There was even an MS commercial that had the audacity to actually
> tout this sorry state of affairs (local gurus acting as free tech
> support to prop up WinDOS) as some sort of selling point.
>
Really. Must have missed it? Sure you'r enot hallucinating. With all the
Penguinista knowledge freely available by so many gratious and newbie- tolerant
hackers just awaiting your query on newsgroups and irc channels around the world,
surely one of them has it in MPG format?
> ...and on the subject of WinDOS "scanning apps": what Umax bundles
> is not very impressive in the least. Linux (gimp+sane) trumps it
> by a wide margin. Their attempt at "one touch" scanning is simply
> pathetic. The end user is still presented with a screen full of
> options they likely don't understand.
What does this have to do with the price of tea on China? You want gimp/sane use
Photoshop and TWAIN or my personal favorite, JASC's PaintShop Pro and the WIA built
into Windows ME and 2o00. Windows 98 users can use STI as well. They both support
image acquisition from scanners, digital still cameras and frame capture from
"webcams" over USB, SCSI or IEEE1394. Older parallel devices are supported through
their existing TWAIN drivers. The really cool thing is that there is no "one touch"
involved at all. You just open the device as if it were a folder and get the
pictures. You can even do basic color correction, cropping, rotation, etc. The cool
thing from the application developer's perspective is that you can continue to use
TWAIN (for compatibility) or use the simple common file dialog approach or go right
to COM for flexibility. It's a nice ala carte interface offering that is so typical
of the way that Microsoft supports it's application developers. See
http://www.microsoft.com/hwdev/wia/images/WIA1.GIF
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