Linux-Advocacy Digest #53, Volume #30 Sun, 5 Nov 00 10:13:06 EST
Contents:
Re: A Microsoft exodus! (2:1)
Re: More Certification ("MH")
Re: I think I'm in love..... ("Weevil")
Re: More Certification (Jacques Guy)
Re: Chad Meyers: Blatent liar ("Christopher Smith")
Re: Linux and Mac instead of Windows. ("MH")
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: windows as a server ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: 2.4 Kernel Delays. ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Linux growth rate explosion! ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: IBM to BUY MICROSOFT!!!! ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever ("Ayende Rahien")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: 2:1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 15:02:54 +0000
Bruce Schuck wrote:
>
> "Perry Pip" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > On Fri, 3 Nov 2000 22:15:11 -0800,
> > Bruce Schuck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >Nope. All Unix/Linux systems have vulnerabilities.
> > >
> >
> > So does NT:
> >
> > http://www.attrition.org/mirror/attrition/os-graphs.html#SPECIAL
>
> According to that site, Linux won September and tied NT in August.
The half truths are worse than lies. That's true for those 2 months. For
the rest, nt was slaughtered.
-Ed
--
Konrad Zuse should recognised. He built the first | Edward Rosten
binary digital computer (Z1, with floating point) the | Engineer
first general purpose computer (the Z3) and the first | u98ejr@
commercial one (Z4). | eng.ox.ac.uk
------------------------------
From: "MH" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: More Certification
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 08:25:09 -0500
Tell this to your resident gurus in cola.
If they are the quality of coders they proclaim, why the persistent mistakes
with contractions, spelling, sentence structure, and word usage? Oh, typos
and phonetic mistakes, sorry.
Phonetic is their most amusing excuse.
Imagine getting away with that one on a college English essay!
> > One of the best software engineer's I ever worked with had a degree
> > in music!
>
> Music, languages and computer science require similar skills. That's
> why most computer scientists are better at spelling and expressing
> themselves (in writing) than the average Joe, and lots of them make
> music.
------------------------------
From: "Weevil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: I think I'm in love.....
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 07:55:12 -0600
Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (sfcybear) wrote in <8u330j$orp$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > You are
> >not interested in that. If you want help, go to the techincal news
> >groups. Infact when I do a deja news lookup, I see NOTHING posted from
> >you to a technical news group about a: sound cards or B SIGSEGV's!
> >NOTHING! it is clear to me that you are not here for help.
>
> This is the advocacy group, is it not? I do not come here for help. I come
> here to point out the weaknesses of Linux that I find.
>
> --
> Pete Goodwin
I didn't bother to check deja myself when I suggested this:
>> If you want help with Linux, go to a newsgroup that addresses your
>> problem.
and you responded with this:
> I already have.
sfcybear did check with deja and discovered you have not asked for Linux
help in any technical newsgroup. You claim you have.
Maybe deja doesn't carry the newsgroup you went to, Pete. I have access to
a fairly good news server, though, so I can probably find the articles you
posted asking for help if you'll tell me which newsgroup(s) you posted in.
So...which newsgroup have you sought help in, Pete?
The answer is none, of course. Your only possible answer to getting caught
in this is to say that you simply read those groups to see if anybody
happened to answer your questions without you asking them. But you've
proven with your many posts here that you're not shy about listing any
"problems" you're having.
So, Pete. Why didn't you ask for help in the technical groups? And then
why did you try to imply that you had?
You also said this in your reply to me:
> You said it - this is a Linux advocacy group. I see a load of stuff that
is
> written that is anti-Windows and is just plain wrong; I see equal amounts
> of stuff that is written that is pro-Linux that is wrong too. So I write
> about what I find.
The anti-Windows stuff is almost always in reaction to an attack on Linux.
If the Linux users here were so hot to post anti-Windows stuff, they'd go to
the Windows advocacy groups and do it there, too, wouldn't they? But they
don't, do they? It is the anti-Linux crowd that has invaded this group, not
the other way around.
You try to pretend that your only goal is to set the record straight about a
lot of incorrect information about both Windows and Linux. To tell the
truth, in other words. So, now that you've been reminded that a deja search
can easily catch you in a lie about what you've posted in Usenet, tell us
about all the pro-Windows people who have posted stuff that is "just plain
wrong" and that you've corrected. Which newsgroup was that in?
There are thousands of times more Windows users than Linux users. If your
motivation is to right what is wrong, to save people from getting incorrect
information, don't you think you could do a lot more good correcting all the
misinformation that gets posted in Windows groups? Of course you could.
You say, "I write about what I find." Do you ever find pro-Windows stuff
that is "just plain wrong?" Which newsgroup(s) was this in? I'd be
interested in reading all the articles you must have written correcting that
stuff.
jwb
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 13:58:26 +0000
From: Jacques Guy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: More Certification
MH wrote:
> Tell this to your resident gurus in cola.
> If they are the quality of coders they proclaim, why the persistent mistakes
> with contractions, spelling, sentence structure, and word usage?
One of the best programmers I know cannot spell for peanuts.
I suspect that it is because he was taught the "global method".
Nevertheless, he is so fluent in C (no bull) that he jokes that
C was his first language, English his second, C++ his third.
And he is not far from the truth there.
------------------------------
From: "Christopher Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Chad Meyers: Blatent liar
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 23:59:26 +1000
"Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:Zm8N5.13161$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:8c1N5.123098$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > > >> As usual, you are a blatent liar.
> >
> > How about this one:
> >
> > It lets remote users shut down a workstation on RedHat 6.0, 6.1, and
6.2.
> >
>
> And the current version of RedHat is????
We'll keep this in mind next time someone starts bitching about issues in
Windows 95a.
------------------------------
From: "MH" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux and Mac instead of Windows.
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 09:08:45 -0500
Well stated.
You'll no doubt receive the tired argument from those who claim to have left
windows development for the greener pastures of 30 year old technology --an
almost static state that enables them to adapt slowly because the underlying
infrastructure doesn't allow for change on an order of any magnitude.
This allows them to pick and choose from very little 'new' technology and be
done with it.
Too bad the IT world doesn't work that way. They would have you believe that
every single user of Office on windows has had the software crammed down
their throat, and are suffering from system crashes with every flick of the
mouse. That business isn't looking for new ways to share, store, and
retrieve data, they just want stability. DUH. Yeah people, all these windows
servers lock up just as much as you say they do. That's why the sales keep
going up. Get a clue, please.
Like it or not, MS makes noise in these areas because they are trying to
make noise. I don't like the constant change anymore than the next guy. The
next version of visual studio, quite frankly, is making me feel a little
nauseous. But, and a big but, if it does two thirds of what it claims, it
will be no wonder that businesses will move to those solutions within a year
of the release of the tools.
If most of these stoic punch card pushers had their way, linux would never
evolve beyond *their* ability to keep up. That is one third of the linux
problem. The other two thirds are the types of users who frequent cola, flip
flopping like a fish on dry land. Most of the time bashing windows to
advocate linux (not seeing that the world is moving faster and not listening
to them) then in the next breath giving us what amounts to a swan song of
"what's great about linux" --Choose one approach, will you?
Lastly, you have the pc enthusiasts who just want to be different. Windows
is too common for them to stomach. Thing is, Windows is still there
somewhere in > 90% of the cases, believe me. Small, niche markets like these
don't mandate change. Give 'em a pixilated desktop to play with and life is
good.
Linux has only one hope, and these are the true users, the silent minority
who put up linux servers to run web sites and file servers in small offices.
Making it work, not playing pretend-an-expert in cola day after day, yelling
"I'll sue you" whenever someone argues a point a tad beyond their ability to
manage.
Don't change a thing cola-linux-users. You'll still be here in 10 years.
Singing the same old song.
"I remember back when they said we'd never have a desktop, then we got
KD........"
Oh, Mac? As in iMac? Please. And these folks say windows is unstable, and
based on horrid technology.
===================
> If all factors were equal, I wouldn't be using Windows. I'd be using BeOS
> or perhaps MacOS X (though I haven't used it enough to know for sure).
>
> However, not all factors are equal. The applications and developer
support
> is what keeps me on Windows as both a user and developer. There are lots
of
> things about the Windows OS I don't like as a developer that I think
others
> have gotten right. However, most of these issues are minor frustrations
> rather than big deals. It's not enough for me to go elsewhere, especially
> since the two other major OS's are worse in many of those same aspects.
> Linux suffers from the too many cooks syndrome. No consistency between
> environments or non environment-bundled applications. All kinds of
wildly
> different API's with totally diferent semantics. Very poor developer
> support.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,alt.linux.sucks
Subject: Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 22:12:59 +0200
"Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:_OZM5.13025$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> > >Can you please inform me what you can do in Vi that you can't in Word.
> > >Or even what you can do much more easily in Vi than in Word.
> >
> > "anything complex" probably would fit the bill.
> >
> > However, I will leave the details to the vi users.
>
> One I use fairly often: you have a list of names in
> Last, First form but you want First Last.
> :%s/\(.*\), \(.*\)/\2 \1/
> and you have it. And since regular expressions work
> in most of the unix tools there is nothing extra to
> learn or look up.
Shouldn't be too hard to write a macro to do this.
I don't use VBA, so I can't tell you how easy/hard it would be.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 22:18:48 +0200
"joseph" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
>
> Ayende Rahien wrote:
>
> > The OS cannot be blamed for the user incomacity.
>
> Of course we should blame the OS and people do blame the OS.
> There are disciplines in computer science dedicated to human centered
computing
> and ways to reduce errors and reliance on humans for safety and security.
Outlook *asks* you what you want to do when you click on an attachment, it
*warns* you that it may be a virus. The default action is *saving* it, not
running it.
What else do you want Outlook to do? Refuse to accept attachments? This
seems to be the only way to be more secured.
> > The same can happen on any system, with any email program that support
> > attachments
>
> Oh No. In fact MS boasts about about windows integration - this
integration
> creates security risks. A knife blade cuts both ways.
Is there an non-win email program that let you run the attachments that you
got directly from the mail program?
If there isn't (Someone mentioned Pine can do it) how hard would it be to
build/modify something like this for unix/linux?
Voila, here is a security risk for you, if the attachment is executable, or
a script, it run, and it have the same privileges as the current user.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: windows as a server
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 23:28:08 +0200
"Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Ayende Rahien wrote:
> >
> > Just wanted to give you this list.
> > As so many people seems to think that windows is unfit for the server, I
> > went out to find how many use it.
> > According to netcraft, only ~20% of the servers are running IIS, 60% are
> > running Apache.
> > I've heard people claiming, time & time again, that windows is unfit to
be
> > used as a server.
> > In Linux beats NT thread, they asked how many companies are running NT
as a
> > webserver.
> > I put some (considerable amount of ) time into research and came up with
> > this list, should be interesting read.
> > Enjoy,
> >
>
> What part of "crashes too much" do you not understand?
What part of "Shorten you sig." do you not understand?
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 23:52:59 +0200
"Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:Ps_M5.13033$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:8u1tfm$2nh$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> > > ...assuming you aren't accepting email attachements from anyone.
> >
> > Only if:
> > You are stupid enough to run as administrator
>
> It can still delete all of your own files or send anything you
> can read elsewhere.
Dito for linux/unix/*BSD, and so on, isn't it?
> > You are stupid enough to ignore the very clear warning message that
> Outlook
> > gives you *by default*.
>
> It give the same error message whether the program that might
> view it is allowed to execute insecure commands from the
> attachment itself or not. When the warning is given all
> the time with no way to tell if there is a problem or not
> people will just ignore it.
What error message?
It warns you that the attachment (any type) may harm you, and ask you what
you want to do with it.
YOU choose whatever to ignore it or not.
People ignoring warnings it is by no means the OS fault, right?
The OS has *no way* of knowning whatever this code is dangerous or not.
> > The OS cannot be blamed for the user incomacity.
>
> Since Outlook comes from the same vendor as
> the OS (and they insist that they shouldn't be
> separated) it doesn't make any difference in
> this case.
Who is talking about this?
I'm talking about users either ignoring or disabling the warning that
outlook issues them when they try to open an attachment. How can you blame
the OS/Outlook for the users *ignoring* very clear warning?
> We'll see if things change now that it has happened
> inside of Microsoft itself. There is a saying that
> experience is a fine teacher but only a fool needs
> to learn from it. I think that says all we need to
> say about Microsoft.
No, it means that some idiot in MS need some schooling about basic
precautions.
You could've done the same with any other OS.
> > The same can happen on any system, with any email program that support
> > attachments
>
> No, only email programs that don't distinguish between launching
> programs that allow the attachment to control execution
> from ones that don't.
Will you repeat that?
This sentence doesn't make sense no matter how I look at it.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: 2.4 Kernel Delays.
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 23:56:22 +0200
"Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:JF_M5.13035$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:8u1u5s$a81$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:6qZM5.13022$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >
> > > "Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > news:lCXM5.122690$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > >
> > > > > Of course you can. The question is how it performs compared to
> > > > > apache/mod_perl
> > > >
> > > > I'm more than willing to look at some benchmarks. Do you have any?
> > >
> > > I'll be happy to do some timing if someone can show me how
> > > to make IIS run my perl code. Is perl included in win2k or
> > > do you have to use third party code? Does it run in-process
> > > or separately. Does it all have to be thread-safe?
> >
> > www.activeperl.com should be able to answer your questions.
> > MS ship it as part of Win2k resource kit, btw.
>
>
> I assume you mean www.activestate.com? It is extremely
> unusual for Microsoft to allow anything that can be used
> portably to be associated with their products in any way.
> I hope this is a refreshing change in policy but I'll refrain
> from believing it until I see some code working.
Yes, of course.
I d/l it and didn't go to the site again, sorry for the mistake.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux growth rate explosion!
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 23:59:10 +0200
"Simon Cooke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:x7%M5.52150$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:MoXM5.122683$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > What has Access got to do with a web server.
> >
> > Access databases are used as to serve up dynamic content on IIS.
>
> Ummm... if you're using Access for that, you deserve everything you get.
>
> If you're using Access to talk to a SQL database, or to MSDE for testing
> purposes, then fine -- it'll work great!
>
> If you're using Access with the Jet Engine (the standard access database)
> then woe betide you -- it's not designed for heavy multi-user access.
> Certainly, performance will be heavily lacking in a web-server context.
Not really, providing that you optimize your code, Jet only start to fail at
higher then 20 concurrent users.
Access was never designed or arcitectured to handle large load.
For those purposes, you can get MSDE or DB2 for free.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM to BUY MICROSOFT!!!!
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 00:02:26 +0200
"Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:ly_M5.13034$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:8u1u5t$a81$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:yXYM5.13004$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > > > Broken root. Nope.
> > >
> > > Everybody is root on Windows. and the vbs has complete control,
> > > moves files, deletes files, sends copies to everyone in sight, etc.
> > > Who needs root?
> >
> >
> > Windows != Win9x
> >
> > Try to do the same on NT/2000 see how successful you are.s
>
> Is there something in win2k that would stop a trojan attachment
> from, say, emailing all the confidential sources you can read
> to someone outside the company - perhaps compressing and
> renaming them on the way to disguise the fact?
Is there something in win2k/unix/linux/BSD/solaris/whatever to stop a trojan
from emailing all the confidential sources you have access to someone
outside your company?
Answer: No.
You can see why, don't you?
Anything that you run get your privileges.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,alt.linux.sucks
Subject: Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 08:05:02 +0200
"Chris Ahlstrom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Ayende Rahien wrote:
> >
> > What does MIME types has to do with VBS/JS?
>
> Opening.
Since when windows used MIME in order to open files?
Never, as far as I'm aware of.
> > Use two explorer windows and switch between them.
> > Or use command line.
>
> That's indeed what I often do. But, you still have to do
> the very same process (navigate to source, navigate to destination)
> in both. So it helps only for more than one copy.
Do it via command line.
> > True for anything, but outlook has better help than 99% of the cli
tools.
>
> Man, you need to look at the man pages for Linux. You're talking about
> Windoze help, which, quite frankly, is bad. It's almost as bad
> as help on the old Atari ST.
How fast can I locate something for outlook, how fast can I locate help for
some cli mail program?
99% of the time, it would be outlook.
And 99% of the time, outlook help will be better.
> > If you use shift/ctrl, you don't need to stretch your fingers to the
alt.
>
> ?????
You said you need to stretch your fingers.
> > > Edit HTML (a special case of the above). You can do that with Word,
> > > but you end up with unsatisfactory HTML.
> >
> > HTML editing in Word?
> > Editing HTML in WYSIWYG is usually a bad thing.
>
> We are agreed, then, on this issue.
>
> > You can turn off the unneccecary HTML, (I believe that you can do it in
> > Word. I know that you can do it in FP2000)
> > Although, if you want full control, write the HTML in word, and later
copy &
> > paste the code to a txt file, and save it as htm/html.
>
> Just did that this evening with a Word 2000 document. Microsoft is
> serious about this xml stuff. The styles are XML embedded in comments.
> May be a change worth it, for Word, this time!
They want XML to drive .NET, they most certainly take this seriously. Hell,
even FP 98 had the start of this.
> > It is also very easy to lose files using the NT Explorer GUI.
> >
> > How?
>
> Drag, then your fingers slip. Since NT directories aren't masked
> with permissions by default, your file will drop into whatever directory
> your mouse cursor was over when your finger slipped. Curses, gotta
search.
> Luckily, the recent vintages of Windoze provided the Undo key, Ctrl-Z.
A> Windows always provided Ctrl+Z
B> This has got to be the *lamest* excuse I've ever heard against windows.
You involve two different things, permissions and drag & drop.
> You get tons of screensavers, tools, window managers, databases,
> compilers for C/C++, Java, Perl, Tcl/Tk, Python, shell-scripts,
> network tools, games, desktop themes (not just color, font, and size
> selection), window managers, text-processors, spreadsheets, word
> processors, secure shells, man, the list is endless
You can get most of it for windows too, btw. For free, may I add, if you
know where to look.
The difference is that microsoft can't offer you all of this for a
competetive price, can anybody scream "product bundling"?
> With Windows only, I could barely afford my machine and an old machine
> for my daughter. With Linux, I can buy three desktops and two lap
> tops and outfit them all with a powerful server OS, with no guilt
> about installing illegal copies of Windows application software
> stolen from work.
If software price play so considerably in your consideration, I would have
seriously consider moving into windows freeware market, which is huge.
Most screen savers are free, I love the BSOD one.
Tools you'll have to define more clearly, there are a lot of tools for
windows for free.
Databases, MySQL, DB2, MSDE.
C/C++ compilers: Lcc
Java: JDK
Perl: Active Perl
the list goes on.
------------------------------
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