Linux-Advocacy Digest #118, Volume #30 Wed, 8 Nov 00 11:13:02 EST
Contents:
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: On a win 2000 system. remove RH7 as follows (John Travis)
Re: Lets try serious advocacy/discussion. (Roberto Teixeira)
Re: Oracle say's Microsoft no good! ("Relax")
Re: Linux 2.4 mired in delays as Compaq warns of lack of momentum (Roberto Alsina)
Re: Who says Linux is great? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: The Sixth Sense ("Toon Afish")
Re: Linux 2.4 mired in delays as Compaq warns of lack of momentum (Roberto Alsina)
Re: Lets try serious advocacy/discussion. (Jake Taense)
Re: 2.4 Kernel Delays. (Roberto Alsina)
Re: Linux growth rate explosion! (Artur Biesiadowski)
Re: The Sixth Sense ("Toon Afish")
Re: 2.4 Kernel Delays. ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Lets try serious advocacy/discussion. (Marc Richter)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 17:19:05 +0200
"Caldera OpenLinux User" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Ayende Rahien wrote:
> Choose to run binaries programs often run by a large community of users
and
> heavily scrutinized. There is some reasonable understanding that the
program
> is safe. With a MS office data file (and ActiveX) there is no such
> assurance. It's a design flaw that allows these kinds of files to
execute
> commands and access the OS. The design is one reason windows users pay a
> virus detection tax - they need to buy and run virus detection software
and
> check every downloaded/attached file before they open it.
No I don't.
Consider:
A> There are bad people out there. You parents should've thought you that
when you were about 4-5 years old.
B> Don't accept gifts from strangers.
C> If someone write a virus, s/he would write it so it would hit the largest
possible userbase.
D> Largest possible userbase for virus-worms is currently
win98/outlook/epress.
E> Largest possible userbase for viruses is currently Win*/Dos platform.
Therefor, those who write viruses are concentrating on windows & outlook.
If Unix + Pine, for example, where the most common system, people would
write viruses for them.
And there would be anti viruses for Unix.
The absense of viruses from Unix doesn't mean that they aren't possible, it
just mean that it's harder.
Plus, Unix is targeted for higher LCD than Windows. Much higher, come to
think about it.
------------------------------
From: John Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,alt.linux.sucks
Subject: Re: On a win 2000 system. remove RH7 as follows
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 15:06:16 GMT
On Wed, 08 Nov 2000 08:20:09 GMT, Ketil Z Malde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>John Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>> Actually, I have even found Woody to be more "stable" and less buggy
>
>Yeah, I'd have agreed, until I accidentally upgraded to xfree v4,
>which is a bit less polished than usual. Still can't get it to work
>with my Banshee card.
I was very anxious to see how well the new woody X packages were going
to upgrade. But it all went pretty well. I liked their dexter setup
tool as well. A little XF86Config-4 edit later and all was well. But
then I just had to grab the .95 drivers from nVidia :-). However gdm
still doesn't want to play nice with the new packages...
>
>> Once you get spoiled by apt and a fast connection the "which distro"
>> question is quickly answered.
>
>Yep, wonderful system.
My favorite so far :-). I actually just threw on LM 7.2 as well to
give it a try. It will be removed shortly :-(.
>
>-kzm
jt
------------------------------
From: Roberto Teixeira <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Lets try serious advocacy/discussion.
Date: 08 Nov 2000 13:22:39 -0500
>>>>> "claire" == claire lynn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
claire> The problem is the general public, where the real money
claire> is, has been and continues to ignore Linux. People really
claire> don't seem to care if it is free or not. It doesn't give
claire> them any clear advantage over Windows and in many areas is
claire> several steps backwards. Linux gets tried by some but
claire> ultimately gets dumped by those same folks. I have seen it
claire> happen over and over again.
claire> If Gates declared Monday December 1st "Win2k free day" and
claire> gave a free copy to everyone who went to their retailers
claire> and asked for it, there would be riots in the
claire> streets. Linux is free everyday and yet has a dismal
claire> market share, and personally I think the numbers of Linux
claire> users are greatly inflated. claire
The general public really still loves Windows. That is a fact and I
would not even dare to chanllenge that statement. I don't really know
if people care or not if it is free. I believe that most people don't
even know it is free. Most people don't even know Linux exists. And
for most people, Linux is _not_ the option right now. I really think
so.
If you want to play games and browse the net, stay with your windows
box.
Now, on the server arena, Linux is being proved better than windows
and that is where the Linux users are right now.
--
Roberto Teixeira
Conectiva, Inc.
------------------------------
From: "Relax" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Oracle say's Microsoft no good!
Date: 8 Nov 2000 09:29:07 -0600
"Tim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> it's non multi user which causes more interface problems. As if linux'
> security is not configureable ... windows has nothing even so elegant and
> simple as the home directory paradigm of unix. Even if they did they
> couldn't get it to work, or get any developers to follow it.
Try Windows 2000. Per-user desktop. Win9x was NEVER meant to be used by more
that one person.
> OK, let's take KDE/X11 as an example. I will just point out some UI
> features which I personally like, which windos does not have.
>
> 1. I can rearrange the positions of the buttons on my titlebars, in
> windows the maximize and close buttons are too close together.
You can change the button's size at will. IMHO, you just need a better mouse
(try a Microsoft one ;)
> 2. I can have up to sixteen desktops, and stick applications across
desktops
That's great!
> 3. when i drag a file to a new location a dialog pops up prompting "link"
> "move" or "copy" ... windows assumes different actions depending on what
> you're dragging and where; causing people to forget whether they're moving
> or copying.
Get a two-button mouse and try the right one next time you drag something.
> 4. I can hide the panel and use middle mouse button to get a window list.
> Windows can hide the awful taskbar but then there is no quick way to
switch
> between apps
Try Alt+Tab.
> 5. I can set the first mouse button to bring up the menu, instead of
> having to go all the way to the corner of the screen
Great! Just like making your car's steering wheel act on the brakes.
> 6. if i set the panel to "auto-hide", I can set it to come back instantly;
> windows taskbar has such a slow response from auto hide that it is useless
You don't like the smooth scroll feature because you don't have it. That
said, it takes about 150ms to scroll up, hardly slow enough to make it
useless.
> 7. the ability to run programs as different users in my Xsession, NT has
> no "su"
Windows 2000 has a "Run as different user" in every shortcuts. You can pick
anyone you like including, but not limited to, Administrator.
> 8. annoying "shortcut to ... " prefixed to every shortcut, as if the
little
> arrow on the icon wasn't enough
You can switch this behavior off using the TweakUI control panel applet.
> 9. ability to set my own focus policy (X)
Same as (5) above. Beside that, TweakUI gives you that freedom.
> 10. scroll buttons are together at the bottom of the window neXt-style,
> with a redundant "up" button at the top of the scrollbar. Windos still
has
> the incredibly stupid top button at the top and down button at the bottom.
Use your new Microsoft mouse's wheel.
> 11. windos' scrollbar slider gets too small when the window has too much
> to display, it is quite possible for it to get to small to grab
See (10)
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux 2.4 mired in delays as Compaq warns of lack of momentum
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 15:23:12 GMT
In article <3a080572$0$36976$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Relax" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Roberto Alsina" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:8u8rlg$8k4$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > In article <3a07d40b$0$14416$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > "Relax" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > "Roberto Alsina" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > news:8u77je$vai$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > In article <3a06de7b$0$32739$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > > > "Relax" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > By the way, what is the maximum
> > > > > partition size limit on Linux, and what is the maximum file
size
> > on
> > > > 32bit
> > > > > hardware?
> > > >
> > > > Assuming ext2:
> > > >
> > > > Max file size: 2GB, unless you use the "bigfile" patch.
> > > > Max part size: 4TB
> > >
> > > 4TB maximum FS size is quite decent, but 2GB filesize is hardly an
> > > "enterprise scale" limit. Needs to mature a bit :)
> >
> > Or you need to use the "bigfile" patch. You seem to enjoy selective
> > reading.
>
> Oh yes, and what are you going to do, recompile Oracle to use the new
API?
What new API? Are you smoking something funny?
--
Roberto Alsina
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Who says Linux is great?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 15:30:14 GMT
On Wed, 8 Nov 2000 14:42:25 +0100, "Aleksandar V." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>I can't hide my disappointment about Linux. You all seem to enjoy to talk
>some nonsense about "stability" of Linux kernel. How about stability of X,
>or any X-based application you use?
Welcome to Linux!
X-Applications?
Heresy you speak here!
claire
------------------------------
From: "Toon Afish" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Sixth Sense
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 10:33:10 -0500
Since UNIX was on the scene first, Windows did play catch up for many
things. Rome wasn't built in a day, and all that stuff. But you would be
doing yourself a favor by learning the OS before posting messages and
displaying your ignorance to the world. That must be really embarassing!
Which 50 year old OS are you referring to? I admit I'm not familiar with
many operating systems in use four years before I was born. And, since there
were only a handful of digital computers in the world, not many people were.
But an expert like you must have a full command of every OS every produced,
dating back to the BOS (biological operating system) used to run the first
computer in the 1600s. Or maybe the BOS used to run the abacus. Please.
Enlighten us.
"Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> You mean, that Windows is playing catchup on components that have been
> standard throughout the industry anywhere from 10 to 50 years...?
>
> --
<Self Promoting Tag Line Snipped>
> http://directedfire.com/greatgungiveaway/directedfire.referrer.fcgi?2632
>
>
> Assinine fluff snipped>
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux 2.4 mired in delays as Compaq warns of lack of momentum
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 15:28:06 GMT
In article <RJTN5.45$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> "Roberto Alsina" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:8u8rjo$8jq$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > In article <3a07cf10$0$14378$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > "Relax" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > "Roberto Alsina" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > news:8u77je$vai$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > In article <3a06de7b$0$32739$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > > > "Relax" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > Just take filesystems, for
> > > > > example. NTFS has features found in many other filesystems,
like
> > ext3,
> > > > JFS
> > > > > and XFS, but no single filesystem does all what NTFS does.
> > > >
> > > > What is it NTFS does that XFS or JFS doesn't?
> > >
> > > First, it is there.
> >
> > Uh? I had used XFS in 1996.
> >
> > If you mean "not there for Linux", then let's deal with something
that
> > is there, like ReiserFS, instead of with something that is not.
>
> Is ReiserFS released yet?
It's version 3.5.24, AFAIK.
> Has it been thoroughly tested?
"Now It successfully passed 24h mongo.sh test.", I read in the website.
Don't know how much testing you mean.
> IIRC, it's still an outsider and hasn't
> been fully included in the major distributions (although SuSE has it?
I
> remember hearing one of them did now).
Actually, several do. Many are not including it, but the consensus seems
to be that ReiserFS is currently safer than ext2, so I don't know why
they don't.
> Has it been thoroughly tested in an enterprise environment or a
> high-traffic database environment (where +2GB files would be most
important)?
I don't know. Then again, I don't think ext2 has been tested at that,
either.
--
Roberto Alsina
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jake Taense)
Subject: Re: Lets try serious advocacy/discussion.
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 15:46:28 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> End User Sup: $10.00 (Assuming $100 per call, 1 in 10 call)
If one in ten units sold caused a support call, every company based around a
windows product would fold. Get real.
>
>Linux Version
> End User Sup: $2 (Assuming $100 per call, 1 in 50 call)
Why do you assume 1 in 50 here? Where did these numbers come from?
They were made up on the spot, with no foundation in a reality of any sort.
I can make (or "assume") numbers on the spot, too.
I can't treat your math with any seriousness, since it's not based on
anything.
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: 2.4 Kernel Delays.
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 15:43:04 GMT
In article <8u8vle$4ns$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> "Roberto Alsina" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:8u6epd$7qu$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> > And anyway, you are ignoring what I *did* write. Even if the windows
> > sources survive, almost all knowledge about said sources is
concentrated
> > in Redmond. I doubt that if all that knowledge disappeared, the
> > remainder would be enough to keep developing windows further, at
least
> > without a very long hiatus.
>
> 90% of the desktop market is a good enough reason, I would imagine.
Sure, never claimed reasons were lacking.
> And according to OSS supporters, the hiatus wouldn't be felt, would
it?
> Since MS takes so long to release something anyway.
Well, if you were told tomorrow that the next version of windows would
come in 2006, and be done by nearly none of the people that wrote the
current one, after they endure extensive training into learning how to
tangle with the 20+ millions of code in the product, how much of your
business would you bet on it?
--
Roberto Alsina
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Artur Biesiadowski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux growth rate explosion!
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 16:44:56 +0100
Chad Myers wrote:
> But it has to break up the database into seperate files or
> do some other fancy tricks right?
Excuse me, but do you think that keeping entire database in single file
is good idea ? Does oracle (which seems to be clear winner in terms of
scalibility) keep entire database in single file ? No. There is number
of locks, transaction files, index files and
all-the-hell-I-don't-know-what-this-file-is-for files. In database it is
a interface to db which is important, not physical layout on disk.
What's the difference if db would like to keep every table in separate
file ??
Artur
------------------------------
From: "Toon Afish" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Sixth Sense
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 10:36:42 -0500
"Giuliano Colla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> The point is that a Unix expert will solve you a problem in a fraction
> of the time required by an equally competent Windows expert to do a
> sloppy job. Therefore his market value (as measured in terms of the
> service he can providing a given time) is much higher than that of a
> Windows expert.
I'd love to see the data to support this.
>
> A competent manager will not put his informative system in mercy of
> Windows unless he's ready to leave the company and wants to laugh at his
> replacement.
I guess that's why Staples and E-Bay use Windows, as well as Compaq and
Dell. They have no use in reliable machines for their web business, do they?
> A competent manager knows that a job which can be done neatly and
> quickly with a good OS, may take forever with a bad OS, which has no
> provision for what you require.
Here again, you assume that Windows is a "bad OS." It isn't. Naturally, you
can prove this claim, can't you?
> A competent manager knows that cost is not given by salary, but salary
> *times* the time required to do do the job.
> A manager telling "I don't care whether it's Windows or Unix, get it
> done!" is just a pompous ass.
Thank god I've never said that! But it sounds like you're familiar with it.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: 2.4 Kernel Delays.
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 17:59:12 +0200
"Roberto Alsina" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8ubsa6$nd7$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Well, if you were told tomorrow that the next version of windows would
> come in 2006, and be done by nearly none of the people that wrote the
> current one, after they endure extensive training into learning how to
> tangle with the 20+ millions of code in the product, how much of your
> business would you bet on it?
Not very much, I've to admit.
If this would be the case, I think the code would be GPLed.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marc Richter)
Subject: Re: Lets try serious advocacy/discussion.
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 10:58:53 -0500
On Wed, 08 Nov 2000 01:35:31 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Tue, 07 Nov 2000 21:27:18 -0500, mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>>This is a false expectation, margins are so low on Windows consumer
>>hardware, that products net very little money. That combined with the
>>fact that Linux users are genrally more computer literate than most
>>Windows users, means that support costs for Linux devices would be
>>lower, that added with the fact that there is little competition, means
>>that getting 10% of a Linux market, may be more profitable than 1% of
>>the Windows market.
>
>Huh?
>
>There isn't a product out on the market, excepting those written or
>manufactured for specific platforms (ie:Mac,Sun/Aix/MVS etc) that
>doesn't come with Windows drivers, The support for Linux devices is
>virtually none and in most cases it is an afterthought, if a thought
>at all.
>
>Take a look at Creative. They have Win2k drivers, but the Linux
>drivers are still half assed. There is Liveware and Playcenter for
>Win2k, but none for Linux.
>
>How about Lexmark?
>
>Sure their website mentions Linux drivers being available for "some"
>printer models. Now go and try and find them. Searching the website
>for "Linux" gives zero hits. Oh yea if you go into the complete list
>of printers you can wade through them and figure out which ones
>support Linux.
>
>Linux is an afterthought that comes along well after the Windows
>drivers are written, if at all.
>
>Imagine how many widgets a hardware manufacturer would sell if he
>released it to market and then told you inside the box, that the
>Windows drivers are still being written.
>
>Yet that is exactly what the Linux community puts up with every day.
>Wishing, hoping and praying that some pimple faced geek will write a
>driver for a particular piece of hardware.
>
>That is no way to operate.
>
>claire
>
Ok, think this through for a second, because it's the same kind of effect
that made a fair number of companies money during the 80's and 90's...selling
Mac only products.
Linux clearly has "gaps"...no one being honest will admit otherwise. For
instance, as far as I know, there is no parallel port scanner sold
specifically for Linux folk. If a vendor were to build a device and
focus on a simple install with a wicked-cool X-based interface for
newbies along with good command-line tools for script folk, they
would be alone in a market...just like many companies made lots O money
selling Mac-only products (I think of Dayna and Farallon, both Mac-only
network companies for a long time. Farallon ended up buying Dayna and
has since expanded to multi-platform stuff. But both companies enjoyed
many years of far less competition and good profits)
This is just one quick "what the heck" product off the top of my head. I
think what has prevented such a thing from happening is fear...fear that
Linux folk wouldn't buy such a thing. Heck, if I had the money and/or
know-how, I might just try doing it myself. <grin> Because I think the
market is there...it's not being tapped.
MacWarehouse made a ton of money during the eighties and nineties. When
people were crowing that there was no place to buy Mac hardware and
software, MacWarehouse was shipping millions of dollars a week...via
mail order. They owned the Macintosh mail order business until other
companies (like Mac Mall and Mac Connection) woke up and saw the
potential. Meanwhile, Peter Godfreid (the founder and owner) laughed
all the way to the bank.
With the Web now as popular as it is, and with people comfortable with
"e-commerce", a small Linux-only hardware company would stand, in my
mind, a decent chance of "mining" some good opportunity that they
just might not have in the Windows-only world...where they would be
one tiny voice amongst an already huge crowd.
--
Marc A. Richter I&R Deployed Support
142. If I have children and subsequently grandchildren, I will keep my
three-year-old granddaughter near me at all times. When the hero enters
to kill me, I will ask him to first explain to her why it is necessary
to kill her beloved grandpa. When the hero launches into an explanation
of morality way over her head, that will be her cue to pull the lever
and send him into the pit of crocodiles. After all, small children like
crocodiles almost as much as Evil Overlords and it's important to spend
quality time with the grandkids.
from "Things I'll Do When I Become an Evil Overlord"
The contents of this message express only the sender's opinion.
This message does not necessarily reflect the policy or views of
my employer, Merck & Co., Inc. All responsibility for the statements
made in this Usenet posting resides solely and completely with the
sender.
------------------------------
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