Linux-Advocacy Digest #226, Volume #30 Tue, 14 Nov 00 03:13:03 EST
Contents:
Re: Uptime -- where is NT? (Bob Lyday)
Re: The Sixth Sense ("Les Mikesell")
Re: The Sixth Sense ("Les Mikesell")
Re: Uptime -- where is NT? ("Erik Funkenbusch")
Re: Journaling FS Question (Was: Re: Of course, there is a down side...) ("Bruce
Schuck")
Re: Linux 2.4 mired in delays as Compaq warns of lack of momentum ("Bruce Schuck")
Re: The Sixth Sense ("Les Mikesell")
Re: Uptime -- where is NT? ("Erik Funkenbusch")
Re: OS stability ("Les Mikesell")
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ("Les Mikesell")
Re: OS stability ("Erik Funkenbusch")
Re: Linux 2.4 mired in delays as Compaq warns of lack of momentum ("Les Mikesell")
Re: Linux Is Lame. Sorry but it is true (Terry Porter)
Re: Linux 2.4 mired in delays as Compaq warns of lack of momentum (Ketil Z Malde)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 22:41:43 -0800
From: Bob Lyday <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Uptime -- where is NT?
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>
You still never explained why NT never made it into the Top 50, Eric.
And you never explained the graph that shows Starbucks rebooting their
NT 4 server on a daily basis for months and months on end. I thought
NT 4 was the end-all and be-all of server OS's, Eric? How can u
explain this anomalous behavior? Oh, and Eric, how can you explain
the fact that 74% of all Internet servers are on *nix? And how can
you explain the recent study in which an NT server had to be rebooted
64 times in a year while the Linux server only had to be rebooted
once? And how can you explain the most recent repeats of the
Mindcraft survey in which Linux/Apache is now kicking NT/IIS? Eric?
Are you there? ;)
--
Bob
"Nigeria is a continent." "Trade with Mexico is not foreign trade."
"Is our children learning?" "People from Greece are called
Grecians." "Social Security is not a federal program." George Bush,
Einsteinian genius, ex-con, ex-cokehead, ex-adulterer, ex-drunk and
popularly defeated Presidential candidate, demonstrating his stunning
intellectual breadth and encyclopedic knowledge.
Remove "diespammersdie" to reply.
------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Sixth Sense
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 07:17:01 GMT
"Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:VM2Q5.126334$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> > > Create a shortcut with any command line flags you want in windows.
> > >
> > > Easy. Intuitive.
> >
> > Every script needs a shortcut? That's bad.
>
> Scripts don't NEED shortcuts.
>
> The shortcut feature is wonderful. It allows the logical grouping of
> executables and scripts and ducments.
If the filesystem had general purpose links and symlinks as unix
has had for eons, you wouldn't need the limited-function concept
of shortcuts.
> > > Set your own icon if you want to make it easier to remember.
> >
> > I don't want icons, I want to connect them with pipes so
> > each one can be used as a component of another.
>
> So what do you do? Type ls at the comand prompt to search for you the
script
> you want to run and then type in the name of the script with the command
> line switches every time?
No, that's the point of making the script able to invoke it's interpreter
with the command line flags it needs.
> Sounds down right archaic.
Downright handy. And any time the typing becomes cumbersome you
just write a higher level script to invoke the frequently used
combinations with a single command.
> > > the"All Users" folder.
> >
> > Yech - you mean gunk shows up on your desktop whether you want
> > it or not?
>
> No. Usable programs show up for other users when Administrators want it
too.
> Great feature. Doesn't Linux have that one? Pity.
Programs are typically installed for all users.
> Features. Lots of features in Win2k. Great OS. Much more advanced than
> Linux!
Catching up, but slowly.
> > The OS for people who think that a hundred is not a large number of
> > programs. Or maybe a thousand - but I don't want to have to make a
> > shortcut for each one.
>
> How do you list them and find them? ls ? Slow and archaic. How do you
group
> them logically by project or function and store them a different way?
Why would I ever want to see them? There is nothing inherently
'visible' about a program or useful about seeing them. Park them
off in your PATH and execute them as desired.
> Do you have a text file with a thousand script names?
Huh? I am able to permute combinations and options, unlike
a click-it-or-not icon. I could do a thousand different
things to a text file with short, concise commands.
> Sounds positively archaic.
I don't think so. It maps very well to the
way we think and type.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Sixth Sense
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 07:18:47 GMT
"Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:Jj4Q5.126368$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> > Show me a machine without IE that's vulnerable to ILOVEYOU.
>
> Show me a copy of Linux on the store shelves without a root exploit.
Or any Microsoft OS?
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Uptime -- where is NT?
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 01:23:41 -0600
"Marty" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
> > "Marty" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > Recently, they decided it would be a great idea to take this smoothly
> > > working setup and install Win2K as the web server in its place. I now
> > > had to change my content in two ways:
> > >
> > > 1. My index.html page had to become default.htm (requiring changes in
all
> > > of the sub-pages that link back to this page)
> >
> > Not true. What the default html page is admin defineable. They could
have
> > made your default page default.htm if you had asked them to.
>
> So it was the maintainer's ignorance that caused him to change from the
> world-wide standard "index.html" to "default.htm"? If not, then why would
the
> default be set to something non-standard and conforming to 8.3 notation?
I don't know if it was the maintainers ignorance or not. Likely, it's your
ignorance for not asking them to make your default page what you wanted (I
think all web servers give you the option for this, so you should have known
to ask).
> > > 2. All of the CGI stuff I was using had to be canned, rebuilt, or
replaced
> >
> > You'd have to do that if they moved to Solaris on an x86 box as well.
>
> Right. But every page on the site had to do this, and what have we gained
> from it?
The point is that the type of system moved to is irrelevant to this problem.
*ANY* change in OS would required at least a rebuild.
> > > If that was the extent of the trouble, it would have been
inconvenient,
> > > but tolerable, but it wasn't. Take a look now at where
> > > http://emuos2.vintagegaming.com is now. Or even
> > > http://www.vintagegaming.com. Can't reach it, can you? It's been
> > > like this on and off for 2 weeks. It has been down more than it has
been
> > > up by a ratio of 100:1.
> >
> > Have you asked them why? Maybe they're having hardware troubles.
>
> I've discussed the situation with the owner of the most popular page on
the
> site. They are having software difficulties. The web site has been up
with
> Win2K and came down shortly thereafter. While it was up, I noticed less
> throughput and my uploads for getting the site back online were slower
than
> usual, but I'm sure this will be dismissed as circumstantial.
Some common sense here. They had a system that had probably been running
for quite some time and well tweaked. They install a new system that hasn't
yet been tuned. Of course it will be slower until they tune it to the same
level the old server had been. On further examination, it appears that the
owner of the box is running your site on a DSL line, at least that's what
the hostnames resolve to in the traceroute.
Still, your story makes no sense. Tens of thousands of people have Win2k up
and running their web servers. Why is this one site the only one that can't
even bring their site up? The only reason would be a hardware or driver
related issue where they needed to wait to replace it.
> > Doing a traceroute, I find that pings aren't getting outside of
alternet.
> > It's dying even before it gets to the subnet that
emuos2.vintagegaming.com
> > is on. Sounds like a network problem to me.
>
> They've taken down the link to work on the box.
That suggests a hardware problem. Not a website problem.
> > > Needless to say, I'm less than impressed.
> >
> > Perhaps if you looked into things, you might find out what's wrong.
>
> I figured that being in personal contact with the folks who are working
> directly on the problems and the folks who are most affected by it would
be
> considered "looking into things". Aside from that, there's nothing I can
do
> because the box is offline.
You said only that you talked to the "owner of the largest site" on the box.
Not that you talked to the people working on the problem. If you are, what
specifically is the problem?
------------------------------
From: "Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Journaling FS Question (Was: Re: Of course, there is a down side...)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 23:24:42 -0800
"Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:KC4Q5.20465$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:9mWP5.126188$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > > > > > http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q101/6/70.ASP
> > > > >
> > >
> > > Where does it say that what it considers as a transaction includes the
> > > data? I question this because I have seen other sources that said it
> > > didn't.
> >
> > When a user updates a file, the Log File Service records all redo and
undo
> > information for the transaction. For recoverability, redo information
> allows
> > NTFS to roll the transaction forward (repeat the transaction if
> necessary),
> > and undo allows NTFS to roll the transaction back if an error occurs.
> >
> You are extremely gullible if you take that statement as saying that the
> data is considered part of the transaction. I always assume the worst
> out of habit when I see any such omission of details in a warm-fuzzy
> description, especially from a certain large company, but I see someone
> else posted the link to the admission that it doesn't.
From: http://www.executive.com/whats-new/whitepaper.asp#_Toc463769977
NTFS is a recoverable file system. This means that operations in NTFS are
transactions, as in a database. Either the entire operation completes or the
operating system has the capability to roll back the unfinished portion,
safeguarding the integrity of the existing data. NTFS also stores redundant
copies of critical file system structures in the unlikely event that
physical damage makes one copy of them inaccessible.
Or: http://www.digit-life.com/articles/ntfs/index.html
Journalising
NTFS is a fail-safe system which can correct itself at practically any real
failure. Any modern file system is based on such concept as transaction -
the action made wholly and correct or not made at all. NTFS just doesn't
have intermediate (erratic or incorrect) conditions - the data variation
quantum cannot be divided on before failure or after it bringing breakups
and muddle - it is either accomplished or cancelled.
------------------------------
From: "Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux 2.4 mired in delays as Compaq warns of lack of momentum
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 23:29:20 -0800
"Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:O95Q5.20471$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:Dw2Q5.126330$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > Like UNIX, Windows supports the concept of raw files, which are
basically
> > unformatted disk partitions that can be used as one large file. Raw
files
> > have the benefit of no file system overhead, since they are unformatted
> > partitions. As a result, using raw files for database or log files can
> have
> > a slight performance gain. However, the downside to using raw files is
> > manageability since standard Windows commands do not support
manipulating
> or
> > backing up raw files. As a result, raw files are generally used only by
> very
> > high-end installations and by Oracle Parallel Server, where they are
> > required.
>
> Do people use Oracle in situations where they don't want a 'high-end'
> installation?
The Oracle documentation says "very high-end" imply levels of high-endness.
I would therefore assume fewer Oracle installations use raw partitions.
The Oracle documentation also says the performance gains are very small.
>
> > On the other hand, Oracle on NT has advantages:
>
> But none of the things you listed were NT specific.
Don't be so blatantly dishonest.
I quoted:
"Internally, all Oracle8i file I/O routines support 64-bit file offsets,
meaning that there are no 2GB or 4GB file size limitations when it comes to
data, log, or control files as is the case on some other platforms."
"some other platforms" have 2GB or 4GB file limitations.
Linux and Unix would be examples.
NT does NOT have a 2GB or 4GB file size limitation.
------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Sixth Sense
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 07:27:40 GMT
"Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:185Q5.126387$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> >
> > Isn't it still impossible to completely turn off active-x in IE?
>
> Of course it's possible. And easy. And you can turn it on and off for
> trusted/untrusted sites so you can leave it on for internal corporate
sites
> and turn it off for all others.
Has this been fixed?
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0%2C4586%2C2322425%2C00.html
and is the problem mentioned here about anyone being able
to redistribute a buggy applet signed by Microsoft true?
http://archives.indenial.com/hypermail/ntbugtraq/1999/March1999/0057.html
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Uptime -- where is NT?
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 01:44:11 -0600
"Bob Lyday" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
> >
> You still never explained why NT never made it into the Top 50, Eric.
Read the link again. It explains it quite clearly. NT4 simply cannot, in
any circumstance, report an uptime longer than 49.7 days, even if the server
has been up for 3 years straight. It can't make it into the top 50 if it is
incapable of reporting a time large enough to BE in the top 50, now can it?
> And you never explained the graph that shows Starbucks rebooting their
> NT 4 server on a daily basis for months and months on end.
Again:
http://uptime.netcraft.com/hammer/accuracy.html#whichos
"NT4 SP5 sometimes gives unreliable data, appearing as a "swarm of bees"
effect on a graph."
Notice how the starbucks NT4 results show no trend. One day it's an 18 day
uptime, the next day it's 40 days, the next day it's 0 days, the next day
something else. There is no way from *ANY* NT4 uptime result to know if
it's accurate or not.
> I thought
> NT 4 was the end-all and be-all of server OS's, Eric? How can u
> explain this anomalous behavior?
I explain it by pointing out netcrafts own explanation. NT4's uptime
statistics are not valid in any condition. Ever.
> Oh, and Eric, how can you explain
> the fact that 74% of all Internet servers are on *nix?
I can't explain it, because it's not true. 74% of all hostnames are run on
unix servers, which is not the same thing as 74% of all internet servers.
There is no statistics on how many actual servers there are on the internet,
and what OS they run. Here's the hint, one server can have more than one,
even thousands of hostnames. And one hostname can have more than one, even
hundreds of servers.
> And how can
> you explain the recent study in which an NT server had to be rebooted
> 64 times in a year while the Linux server only had to be rebooted
> once?
And which study was that?
> And how can you explain the most recent repeats of the
> Mindcraft survey in which Linux/Apache is now kicking NT/IIS? Eric?
> Are you there? ;)
Apache is *NOT* kicking IIS. Tux is. And that's an entirely different can
of worms. Get your facts straight.
------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OS stability
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 07:31:22 GMT
"Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:%G4Q5.8168$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Every machine I have worked on for the last several years has been
> > keep powered up continously for years, unless there was a failure
> > on the motherboard.
>
> Wow. Every machine you've ever worked on has been continuously powered up
> for years. That's amazing. You not only completely beat out every
> statistic known to man, but have never applied a kernel patch either.
Ever.
Even if you reboot after a kernel update there is no need to power
cycle the machine. On unix/linux, you typically do such things
remotely, so who's going to flip the switch back on? Lots of
machines will power themselves off, but...
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 07:34:43 GMT
"Pascal Haakmat" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8uqjag$3g6$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Curtis wrote:
>
> >Les Mikesell wrote...
> >> Every mailer that lets the attachment content execute it's choice of
> >> interpreter whether it is a program known to be safe or not is broken.
> >> That just happens to be the kind that Microsoft wrote.
> >
> >But how can that happen? Outlook opens the file using the default
> >associated application as defined by the user of the system. The file
> >cannot determine what opens it. That's ridiculous.
>
> Just FYI, to some extent that is exactly how it works on the Mac.
Do the common Mac mailers execute the contents of anything
you receive that way when you open an attachment?
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OS stability
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 01:48:50 -0600
"Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:eT5Q5.20481$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:%G4Q5.8168$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > Every machine I have worked on for the last several years has been
> > > keep powered up continously for years, unless there was a failure
> > > on the motherboard.
> >
> > Wow. Every machine you've ever worked on has been continuously powered
up
> > for years. That's amazing. You not only completely beat out every
> > statistic known to man, but have never applied a kernel patch either.
> Ever.
>
> Even if you reboot after a kernel update there is no need to power
> cycle the machine. On unix/linux, you typically do such things
> remotely, so who's going to flip the switch back on? Lots of
> machines will power themselves off, but...
In the context of this discussion, we're talking about never having to bring
down the OS. That precludes rebooting.
------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux 2.4 mired in delays as Compaq warns of lack of momentum
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 07:49:26 GMT
"Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:Lo4Q5.126370$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> > >
> > > Guess what. The Unix admins tell people to stop discussing. They tell
> them
> > > to use other methods.
> >
> > They have done something wrong then.
>
> It helped convince me that Unix wasn't that useful.
In that case you should reconsider because you were
mislead by a bad instance. I'm sure you can round
up any number of broken exchange installations too.
Unix systems typically do not have trouble splattering
a few thousand files around on the local disk. I suspect
they were doing something with NFS that didn't scale
well enough.
> >
> > > Sendmail can't handle it.
> >
> > No, it is the particular machine configuration.
>
> It is the design of the mail system.
Sendmail delivers more mail that anything else
in the world and has since the internet was invented.
> > > > Does anyone run large lists on exchange?
> > Can it manage a large
> > remote list?
>
> Most of the mail at large organizations is internal.
For some definition of internal - not everyone
uses a single box. Anyway, that wasn't the question.
Is anyone using exchange for large internet lists?
Microsoft's own spam messages don't mention
exchange in the headers.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
Subject: Re: Linux Is Lame. Sorry but it is true
Reply-To: No-Spam
Date: 14 Nov 2000 07:49:23 GMT
On 13 Nov 2000 22:40:03 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> . wrote:
>
>>> The difference between you and pete is that its not HIS fault that
>>> hes an idiot, claire.
>>>
>>> You are an idiot because you are dishonest and lazy.
Not to mention fradulent and deceitful.
>
>> Ah yes, words of wisdom from a known moron on this group.
No he's not, its your credibility thats in doubt Goodwn, tho I must say
you do seem to be genuine (atm).
>
>I was complimenting you, pete. You're a congenital idiot; claire
>is a detestable, lazy, stupid, ignorant, obtuse fake.
Gees what did "Claire/Keys88/Heather/Steve" do to deserve this optimistic
descripion yttrx ??
>
>
>
>
>-----.
>
--
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux, and has been
up 5 days 2 hours 30 minutes
** Registration Number: 103931, http://counter.li.org **
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux 2.4 mired in delays as Compaq warns of lack of momentum
From: Ketil Z Malde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 07:57:18 GMT
"Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> Well, Linux is being used by plenty of enterprises, so it's beyond
>> "enterprise ready".
> It is? How so? Please provide examples.
I am using it, in an enterprise. I know people who use it in
enterprises. More visibly, there are possibly more web sites hosted
on Linux than on any other OS - you'll disagree, I know, but I suspect
even you have to admit there are *some*.
>> I'm not sure why you think ext2 is half-baked and faulty?
> Because it is. There's no redundancy,
Redundancy doesn't belong in a file system, and you can have it at a
lower layer. I've run disk mirroring for ages now, with ext2 on top.
(Of course there's redundant superblocks and other critical
metadata. Is that what you meant?)
> no jounraling,
True. But journalling is slow, and the only benefit is speeding up
crash recovery. Having it as an option (by using ext3, which
essentially is ext2 with journalling, or ReiserFS) is IMHO a good
thing.
> no protection,
What "protection" is it that you want?
> it's slow,
I don't think so. What benchmarks are you referring to?
> it's poorly designed,
I don't think so. How so?
> Obviously there are problems because there are several other FS' in
> the works
You keep coming back to this issue. Of course it isn't *perfect*.
Ext3 adds journalling, which makes sense in some cases, but far from
all. ReiserFS adds a B-tree structure, which will be faster in some
cases, in particular for large directories of small files.
XFS is coming, because SGI wants Linux to be able to read their file
systems, and it is of course an industry-proven file system with tons
of features. JFS is coming, because IBM agrees with SGIs sentiments.
>> and it's always been a good performer with no more bugs than any other.
> Compared with what?
Compared with other file systems I've been using, FAT, NTFS,
minix/ext/xiafs, AdvFS, HP JFS. But mostly compared with my
expectations.
-kzm
--
If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants
------------------------------
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