Linux-Advocacy Digest #614, Volume #30 Sat, 2 Dec 00 19:13:05 EST
Contents:
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Linux growth rate explosion! ("Jon A. Maxwell (JAM)")
Re: Linux growth rate explosion! ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: A Microsoft exodus! (Tim Smith)
Re: A Microsoft exodus! (Tim Smith)
Re: A Microsoft exodus! (Tim Smith)
how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's? (jtnews)
Re: Red hat becoming illegal? (Glitch)
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever (Giuliano Colla)
Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's? (Mike Raeder)
Re: OS Sound OFF. ("Bracy")
Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's? (jtnews)
Re: Whistler review. (The Ghost In The Machine)
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever ("Nigel Feltham")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 00:36:39 +0200
"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Said Ayende Rahien in alt.destroy.microsoft on Sat, 2 Dec 2000 20:12:55
> >I complained that too many programmers don't adher to MS recommendations
> >about programming, and store user spesific data in the HKLM key in the
> >registry.
> >Doing this will work on 9x line, where the registry (as the file system)
has
> >no security whatsoever. But if you try to use such a program on NT
machine,
> >you get into a lot of problems, as the registry *does* have security and
> >permissions, so nobody except the Admin & System users can write to HKLM.
>
> You've brought to light another way the its Microsoft's fault. How is
> it if the Win32 apps can use the registry the same way, and its
> supposedly the same mechanism, it doesn't work the same between the two
> platforms? Wouldn't it make more sense for NT to be the one to
> differentiate between user settings and system settings, rather than
> providing false support to the application developers?
NT registry has security & permissions.
This mean that not everyone can write to HKLM.
Usually, all users can read from most of HKLM.
Win9x registry doesn't support permissions, therefor, anyone can write to
HKLM.
Users can of course write to HKCU.
Please check MS guidelines to programming in windows, you'll see that it
states very clearly that user spesifics settings in HKCU.
Beside, the very same mecanism (HKCU being user spesific) works in win9x.
> >He failed to bring a single reason, however frail that storing user
spesific
> >info in HKLM can be of any advantage to the program.
>
> That's cause I don't give a shit why any program does things one way or
> the other, so long as they work. Most apps probably just changed their
> ini file settings to registry calls. Being bone-heads, they never even
> stopped to think, apparently, that their software may be expected to
> work on anything but a desktop PC. How were they to know that the
> action of the monopoly in increasing prices and reducing competitive
> value would make any desktop PC as likely as not to run a
> workstation-level OS? So they cram all their stuff into the local
> machine branch instead of the local user branch of the registry (thus
> allowing all users of the system to share the settings, since they're
> really all the same person). Doing it the way you want would mean that
> accidentally "logging in" as a different user would make the software
> non-functional. Its easier and slightly more intuitive than doing
> things right.
No, it's not.
Not by a long shot.
"allowing all users of the system to share the settings, since they're
really all the same person" is a silly statement.
You don't accidently log on as another user, even if that user has no
password.
And if you do, you should get the other's user settings.
Because that it how it should work.
> You'd never hear me defend anyone who did this. But it ain't
> necessarily their fault; if the OS weren't monopoly crapware, they
> probably wouldn't have made this mistake, even if given the opportunity
> (which no competitive OS gives them to begin with).
How does the OS being monopoly has anything to do with this mistake?
>I was trying to explain to him in terms he might be able to understand,
> >although, after his insistance about file extentions comlexity, I'm
> >beginning to doubt his knowledge of windows in particular and computers
in
> >general.
>
> LOL.
>
> >BTW, my testing of netscape 6 aren't unusual, so it seems.
> >http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-2000-11/lw-11-netscape6.html
>
> Unusual? No. About what I'd expect from Netscape. It only looks good
> in comparison to IE. Truth is, its pretty crappy software, from what
> I've seen.
Have you even tried comparing memory footprints?
Right now, OE is taking 15MB (peak at 30MB), IE 7MB (peak at 17MB).
Netscape reached 40MB (peak at 65MB at which point I terminated it because
it seem to just want more and more) easily, by simply surfing with *one*
window open. And just openning it would take 22- 25MB.
Trying to do things with more than one window open increase memory usage in
a totally unacceptable ways.
------------------------------
From: "Jon A. Maxwell (JAM)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux growth rate explosion!
Date: 2 Dec 2000 22:58:22 GMT
Simon Cooke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: (comp.lang.java.advocacy)
|"Steve Mading" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
|>
|> That's the whole point: "the security access of the user running
|> it" isn't enough to infect or replace system software on unix
|> unless the user running it happens to be root.
|
| Which will be the case for 99% of home users who don't know better.
Which is why users' programs should be run in the JVM instead of
.NET, say, which will no doubt have bogus security.
Java:
"Thorse.jar wants to delete all your files in C:/WinNT.
Grant permission? [Yes/No/Always buttons]"
.NET:
"Windows can not find ntdll.dll. Please insert the install
disk and try again."
Steve is wrong about unix security magically protecting root from
malicious code -- even unix can benefit from the JVM's security. For
NT it's a dire need, since users must have administrator access to
use the machine effectively as a workstation. As we've all agreed,
Windows98 is an open book.
Jam (address rot13 encoded)
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux growth rate explosion!
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 01:02:01 +0200
"Jon A. Maxwell (JAM)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:90buqe$2df$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Simon Cooke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: (comp.lang.java.advocacy)
> |"Steve Mading" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> |>
> |> That's the whole point: "the security access of the user running
> |> it" isn't enough to infect or replace system software on unix
> |> unless the user running it happens to be root.
> |
> | Which will be the case for 99% of home users who don't know better.
>
> Which is why users' programs should be run in the JVM instead of
> .NET, say, which will no doubt have bogus security.
>
> Java:
> "Thorse.jar wants to delete all your files in C:/WinNT.
> Grant permission? [Yes/No/Always buttons]"
>
> .NET:
> "Windows can not find ntdll.dll. Please insert the install
> disk and try again."
>
> Steve is wrong about unix security magically protecting root from
> malicious code -- even unix can benefit from the JVM's security. For
> NT it's a dire need, since users must have administrator access to
> use the machine effectively as a workstation. As we've all agreed,
> Windows98 is an open book.
Wrong, you don't need to be an admin to use the system effectibely.
About the only things that I log on as admin for are
installation/de-installation of several programs at once, and updating the
system.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tim Smith)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: 2 Dec 2000 14:58:06 -0800
Reply-To: Tim Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Aaron R. Kulkis"
>>All other trials have failed to reproduce the results.
>
><http://www.som.syr.edu/facstaff/dvorak/blackburn.html>
>
>"Typing, Fastest. Mrs. Barbara Blackburn of Salem, Oregon can maintain
>150 wpm for 50 min (37,500 key strokes) and attains a speed of 170 wpm
>using the Dvorak Simplified Keyboard (DSK) system. Her top speed was
>recorded at 212 wpm. Source: Norris McWhirter, ed. (1985), THE GUINNESS
>BOOK OF WORLD RECORDS, 23rd US edition, New York: Sterling Publishing
>Co., Inc."
So? When offered as evidence that the Dvorak keyboard leads to faster
typing, this is so full of flaws it is hard to know where to begin. Has
it occured to you that the reason Mrs. Blackburn types so fast could be
due to characteristics of *her* rather than the keyboard layout?
--Tim Smith
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tim Smith)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: 2 Dec 2000 15:00:34 -0800
Reply-To: Tim Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
On Sat, 25 Nov 2000 19:03:50 -0500, Aaron R. Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[good point snipped]
Oops! In an earlier post, when triming quotes, I edited wrong, and
attributed that stupid post about the fast typist to you. Sorry about
that!
--Tim Smith
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tim Smith)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: 2 Dec 2000 15:07:20 -0800
Reply-To: Tim Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
On Sat, 02 Dec 2000 07:41:59 -0500, Aaron R. Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > Big fucking deal. NOTHING about computers is "intuitive"
>>
>> Incorrect; consider the power switch.
>
>Only to those with previous experience with power switches.
>
>Put a computer in front of a person from a remote village which
>has no electrical service, and let's see how "intuitive" the
>power switch is.
OK, now you are getting silly. Give those villagers electricity, and
all the usual electrical applicances other than computers, and let them
become comfortable with them, THEN give them a computer. The power switch
on the computer will be intuitive to them.
You are confusing "intuitive" with "instinctive".
--Tim Smith
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 18:26:18 -0500
From: jtnews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's?
How come Dell bundles Windows with every PC?
Why can't I buy a machine without having to pay extra for Windows?
Same goes for all the other manufacturers.
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 18:38:26 -0500
From: Glitch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Red hat becoming illegal?
Ayende Rahien wrote:
>
> "mlw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Ayende Rahien wrote:
> >
> > It is perfectly legal for two companies to sign exclusive contacts. Much
> > of what we call "anti-trust" is quite legal under normal circumstances.
> > This is not contradictory, but, in fact, a very reasonable response to a
> > monopoly. It is sort of like a PID motion controller. As one company
> > becomes so successful that it becomes virtually impossible to compete
> > with it. "Feedback" must be applied to prevent runaway.
>
> Not if I understnad the sherman act correctly. Then again, I don't
> understand how the US handle as simple a procedure as election, so the legal
> system is completly beyond me :)
well to be honest the legal system never thought we would have such a
crybaby loser like we have with Gore so b/c of him we are having a 30
day election instead of a 1 day election with some votes counted 5 times
and the other 95% counted once.
> It says nothing about monopols, just about limiting trade.
>
> > The reasons for this are clear. If you have many venders with comparable
> > chunks of the market, they will constantly be improving product and
> > advancing state of the art. If you have one vendor which has full
> > control over a market, then there is no competition and it is likely
> > that state of the art will not improve.
>
> Actually, that isn't quite true.
> If the monopol makes money from selling stuff, it has to constantly improve
> itself in order to compete with *itself*.
> I won't argue that it's better in a non-monopol state. But even in a monopol
> state, the state-of-the-art will improve.
>
> > Now, as I understand it, it is not illegal to be a monopoly, but it is
> > illegal to use the power of a monopoly to perpetuate it, or use a
> > monopoly position in one industry to leverage another. For instance:
>
> I've been saying it for soem time now.
>
> <snip some examples>
>
> Agreed, and I see your point.
------------------------------
From: Giuliano Colla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 23:34:26 GMT
Ayende Rahien wrote:
>
> "Giuliano Colla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Ayende Rahien wrote:
> > [...]
> > > Now I've found it.
> > > Do you consider unix/linux to be a good OS?
> > > Do you consider Netscape 6 to be a good browser?
> > >
> > > Apperantly, it suffers from exactly the same problem.
> > > Netscape 6 require /usr/local/netscape to have read/write to *all*
> users.
> > > Since it stores *user spesifics* settings in there, instead of storing
> them
> > > in /home/<user>/netsacpe
> >
> > Not exactly the same case. It's just a suggested default
> > path (unwise suggestion, I agree). I didn't like it, and I
> > installed to /home/<user>/netscape. Didn't need to get an
> > updated version, just entered the right path in place of the
> > default. However I'm not sure it was necessary, because user
> > specific data are kept in a .mozilla folder on my user home
> > directory.
>
> T. Max & I have been arguing about the HKLM & HKCU in the registry.
> I complained that too many programmers don't adher to MS recommendations
> about programming, and store user spesific data in the HKLM key in the
> registry.
Yes I've been following the thread. What I wanted to point out is that
the choice of Netscape is undeniably bad, but it may be easily overcome,
on Linux, because we're not dealing with a "closed" registry system as
in Windows.
[snip]
>
> BTW, my testing of netscape 6 aren't unusual, so it seems.
> http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-2000-11/lw-11-netscape6.html
I agree with Linuxworld critics. I too have been unable to use the
authomatic download install program, and I have been forced to download
via FTP. Then to have the install script to work, I changed on some .ini
file the URL to point to ftp://localhost/pub/.... and I faked a download
from my very local machine. Not really the easy way!
The only point in favor of Netscape6 (Linux version) I've found so far
is that it withstands the crashme test without crashing.
------------------------------
From: Mike Raeder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's?
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 08:55:41 -0500
jtnews wrote:
>
> How come Dell bundles Windows with every PC?
> Why can't I buy a machine without having to pay extra for Windows?
> Same goes for all the other manufacturers.
I think that Dell is now offering workstations & laptops with Linux
preinstalled.
--
Since-beer-leekz,
Mikey
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit
materiari?
------------------------------
From: "Bracy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OS Sound OFF.
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 23:39:39 GMT
Quadruple boot machine.
hda1 - Win95 SR2
hda5 - WinNT 4.0
hdb1 - Linux-Mandrake 7.2
hdb6 - FreeBSD 4.0
Bracy
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 18:55:07 -0500
From: jtnews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's?
Mike Raeder wrote:
>
> jtnews wrote:
> >
> > How come Dell bundles Windows with every PC?
> > Why can't I buy a machine without having to pay extra for Windows?
> > Same goes for all the other manufacturers.
>
> I think that Dell is now offering workstations & laptops with Linux
> preinstalled.
but, the trouble is every single one of those machines are the more
expensive
models. Look at their cheapest Dell Dimension series, all Windows, with
no
option to buy them without Windows, at an even cheaper price.
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------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Ghost In The Machine)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 00:08:03 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Conrad Rutherford
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote
on 30 Nov 2000 11:54:55 -0600
<3a2693ad$0$44723$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>"Spicerun" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> Conrad Rutherford wrote:
>>
>> > how would you know?
>>
>> I've been there!
>>
>> > That's like saying you run Linux cause it kicks DOS 6.22's ass.
>>
>> I run Linux because it kicks MSDOS3.x, MSDOS4.x, MSDOS5.x, MSDOS6.x,
>> MSDOS7.x, Win9x, WinME, WinNT, and Win2K's ass (all of which I've tried at
>> one time or another....and having to use Win2k here at work -- which you
>> would have known if you had read one of my replies elsewhere in this
>thread.
>> But then again, asking a Winvocate Troll to Read before Posting is futile.
>
>So this tells me that you don't know how to take full advantage of all the
>features W2K offers. W2K is far superiour to Linux in every way I've been
>able to determine.
>
That may depend on the definition of "superior". Not having used
W2k, however, I can't comment too much. (It looks nice enough, but
slowly vanishing menus and pretty gradients in the title bar only
get one so far -- and Gnome already has the gradients.)
It does appear to be superior in at least one way, however: marketing.
Microsoft (IMO) has the best marketing machine ever seen by mankind.
Of course, marketing alone does not a great product make.
(It sure helps, though! Amiga was a great product -- and it's now
more or less dead, thanks in part to lousy Commodore marketing.
Makes one wonder.)
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- insert random misquote here
up 77 days, 18:25, running Linux.
------------------------------
From: "Nigel Feltham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 00:05:13 -0000
>Not true. Whenever possible I avoid using Windows even when developing
>for Windows, because I prefer a more stable and friendly environment,
>with more tools available.
>
>But I develop to X, therefore I must test on X, this you can't escape!
Maybe you should all try vmware - edit on linux, test on windows booted
under linux and when it crashes just restart vmware without the need to
reboot the whole PC. This is what I would use at work if the hardware I
used was up to it (and if vmware supported SCSI scanners under windows).
------------------------------
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