Linux-Advocacy Digest #182, Volume #33 Thu, 29 Mar 01 21:13:02 EST
Contents:
Re: Communism (Roberto Alsina)
Re: Communism ("Joseph T. Adams")
Re: US Navy carrier to adopt Win2k infrastructure (Charles Lyttle)
Re: I regretfully conclude that Linux is a piece of CRAP. (Roy Culley)
Re: Here is the response from Microsoft regarding Linux and Piracy: (Charles Lyttle)
Re: Some OS security thoughts ("Joseph T. Adams")
Re: Arrrrgh! Hoist the Jolly Roger! (GreyCloud)
Re: Linux dying (GreyCloud)
Re: [Fwd: Piracy???? (KMM187962C0KM)] (Chris Ahlstrom)
Re: New worm infests Linux machines/Exposes root backdoor (GreyCloud)
Re: Communism (GreyCloud)
Re: First Cross platform (w32 and Linux) virus ("green")
Re: Richard Stallman what a tosser, was Why open source software is (GreyCloud)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Roberto Alsina)
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,misc.survivalism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.singles
Subject: Re: Communism
Date: 29 Mar 2001 23:22:05 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Thu, 29 Mar 2001 23:10:12 GMT, Bob G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On 29 Mar 2001 19:01:49 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Roberto Alsina)
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:29:22 -0800, Gunner © <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>Id love to see your cites on the Mexican border/Berlin comparison.
>>>Please provide them. I do not recall ever hearing about the AirForce
>>>shooting down unarmed civilian aircraft intentionally knowing full well
>>>that they were unarmed civilian aircraft.i
>>
>>I didn't say the airforce killed anyone on the border. It's usually up
>>to border patrols, or the good citizens of the US.
>
>Your proof, Roberto?
>
>No flame. I'd really like you to produce the evidence.
>
>REAL numbers.
Ok, this has no numbers, but should be an interesting read:
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:call.army.mil/call/fmso/
fmsopubs/issues/border/border.htm++mexican+killed+death+border
+statistics&hl=en
I give you a google cache URL because the original is missing.
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
From: "Joseph T. Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Communism
Date: 29 Mar 2001 23:32:05 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: I agree with some of your statements. We really don't need politics in
: this ng. Why the commie came in here to push his views of communism in
: a linux advocacy group I'll never know. I prefer that we ignore
: further posts about this and pursue what this ng is about.
Political discussions here resemble technical discussions on political
newsgroups. They tend to be even more useless than the normal
uselessness that passes for discussion on either type of forum.
These groups have topics for a reason. I'm guilty of forgetting that
at times. But when something ends up having nothing to do with the
subject of a newsgroup, then it really ought to be taken someplace
where it is more appropriate.
Joe
------------------------------
From: Charles Lyttle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Navy carrier to adopt Win2k infrastructure
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 23:39:15 GMT
GreyCloud wrote:
>
> "T. Max Devlin" wrote:
> >
> > Said Chad Myers in comp.os.linux.advocacy on Wed, 28 Mar 2001 01:21:09
> > >"Chad Everett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > >news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >> On Tue, 27 Mar 2001 03:58:22 GMT, Chad Myers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >MS also extended Java for java developers who ONLY wanted to
> > >> >develop on the Windows platform. MS didn't force anyone to
> > >> >do anything. They just published tools to help developers
> > >> >who wanted to develop for Java, and only for Windows and
> > >> >wanted to take advantage of Windows features.
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> This was in direct violation of their contractual agreements with
> > >> Sun and the Java consortium. Making extensions to Java that were
> > >> platform specific were direct violations. Which is, of course,
> > >> why Sun succeeded in it's lawsuit against Microsoft.
> > >
> > >Which basically resulted in MS putting in a compiler switch to
> > >allow you to turn off the JDirect extensions.
> > >
> > >Big whoop.
> >
> > Hmmm. Seems to me I recall a very large settlement (judicial seal
> > prevents us from knowing how large), and Microsoft's agreeing never to
> > develop Java. Woop.
> >
> > --
> > T. Max Devlin
> > *** The best way to convince another is
> > to state your case moderately and
> > accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
>
> MickeySoft paid Sun $20,000,000.
>
> --
> V
That was the charge they took for one year. Hard to say if that was the
true cost or not. There may have been multiple years, and MS may have
inflated the charge for some reason.
--
Russ Lyttle
"World Domination through Penguin Power"
The Universal Automotive Testset Project at
<http://home.earthlink.net/~lyttlec>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Roy Culley)
Subject: Re: I regretfully conclude that Linux is a piece of CRAP.
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 00:54:49 +0200
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Brian Rourke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On 27 Mar 2001 03:20:09 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
*snip*
> Well, I'm genuinely pissed off, though whether or not I'll ever make
> it to the status of "new Linux user" remains to be seen.
If you have problems installing Linux then why don't you ask for help
on the appropriate newsgroups. An advocacy newsgroup is not the place
to ask for help. Have you tried comp.os.linux.misc or comp.os.linux.setup?
If you are polite, state your problem and what your hw and sw configuration
is you will get help (sometimes within minutes). Do yourself, and us, a
favour and take your problems to the appropriate place.
------------------------------
From: Charles Lyttle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Here is the response from Microsoft regarding Linux and Piracy:
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 23:52:45 GMT
Joel Barnett wrote:
>
> "Adam Warner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Matthew Gardiner"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > From Microsoft Anti-Piracy Team <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date
> > > Thursday, March 29, 2001 6:31 pm To Matthew Gardiner
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject Re: Piracy???? (KMM187946C0KM)
> > >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > >
> > > We suggest that you contact Linux.
> > >
> > > Microsoft Corporation
> > > Worldwide Sales & Support Group
> >
> > LOL
> >
> > Great response from MS, Matthew. I hope you're attempting to have a
> > conversation with your kernel right now.
> >
> > Let's be charitable: Maybe it was a typo, and the MS support person
> > instead meant to write:
> >
> > We suggest that you contact Linus.
> >
>
> Or, perhaps the MS person realized the stupidity of the question and
> intentionally gave a stupid answer.
>
> > Regards,
> > Adam
>
> jbarntt
Doubtful. I've just been talking to the support people from another
major company that makes DSP chips.
ME : Hi, I have need information on emulators for your AAABBB DSP chip.
SUPPORT : Is that a calculator?
ME : No. Its a "Digital Signal Processor" semiconductor chip.
SUPPORT : Oh. Have you visited our web site xx.com.
ME : I tried, but it doesn't come up.
SUPPORT : Well what did you type for the URL?
ME : XX.com and it 404ed
SUPPORT : What's 404ed?
ME : It didn't come up.
SUPPORT : That's because its been changed to xx.education.com.
ME : Let me try that. (Enters URL in browser)
I get a site that talks about programs for primary grade school
children.
SUPPORT : That is where we have all the information on our calculators.
ME : I have a meeting to go to. I'll call back later.
--
Russ Lyttle
"World Domination through Penguin Power"
The Universal Automotive Testset Project at
<http://home.earthlink.net/~lyttlec>
------------------------------
From: "Joseph T. Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Some OS security thoughts
Date: 30 Mar 2001 00:40:50 GMT
Mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: "mlw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
: news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
: ...
:> No e-mail package should run programs without serious user feedback. It
: should
:> be almost impossible to "accidentally" run a program sent via Email, even
: then,
:> if at all possible, the program should be run in a protected environment.
: While my Unix mail prevents me from running scripts that are sent to me, the
: way it achieves this is just to make things difficult. I'd gladly switch to
: the first email program that let me run a script that's sent to me just by
: clicking on it. A warning message before executing is okay, but saving it to
: a file and running chmod before I can do anything with it isn't.
Ummm . . . .
How do you know it wasn't altered in transit?
Are you going to inspect it first?
Will it have root privileges?
Are you willing to essentially trade the integrity of your system in
order to gain a very small amount of convenience?
Is it really that hard to save, chmod, inspect, and run if all looks
OK?
If it is hard, then do you really have any business running the script?
: For me, that's a fine solution, but an even better solution would be to have
: that protected environment you mention. When I want to run a script, I
: almost always know who it's from, and what it should be doing. Still, even a
: source I trust might send an infected file, and a protected environment
: would prevent serious problems.
But you have a protected environment now. You have all the
protections I alluded to above. It's tedious to undo those
protections, but if you do, then you make your system much less
secure. They exist for a reason.
: As far as I know, W2k has no protected environment to execute programs or
: scripts. But, as far as I know, my Sun Unix environment doesn't either. Is
: there such an environment in Linux? And, let's be inclusive here. I don't
: often receive executables, but I might receive script files as various shell
: scripts, perl, python, and so on. What I really want is something that runs
: any shell script in a protected environment, not just Java scripts in a
: protected Java VM. Does that exist in Linux?
You could run the script under a different user account with very
limited privileges and maybe a chroot environment.
But I wouldn't even do that without at least looking at it.
Joe
------------------------------
From: GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Arrrrgh! Hoist the Jolly Roger!
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 16:55:54 -0800
"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
>
> Said GreyCloud in comp.os.linux.advocacy on Wed, 28 Mar 2001 14:50:30
> >"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
> >>
> >> Said GreyCloud in comp.os.linux.advocacy on Tue, 27 Mar 2001 15:54:19
> >> >Craig Kelley wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Chris Ahlstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >> >>
> >> >> > As if anyone really cares:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > http://www.microsoft.com/piracy/howtotell/
> >> >> >
> >> >> > This URL appears at the bottom of a Sony VAIO
> >> >> > ad. I wonder why this URL is there... has
> >> >> > Sony been accused of chicanery with Illegal
> >> >> > Copies of Windows?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Make sure your COA is genuine!
> >> >> >
> >> >> > http://www.microsoft.com/piracy/howtotell/how/default.asp
> >> >>
> >> >> [snip]
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I'm tempted to be utterly juvenile, and send a note
> >> >> > to the e-mail above stammering that somehow Linux
> >> >> > got onto my Windows box. What am I to do????
> >> >>
> >> >> Try to buy a Vaio without Windows.
> >> >>
> >> >> Try to buy a Vaio without Microsfot Word.
> >> >>
> >> >> Try to buy a Vaio using anything other than Internet Explorer.
> >> >>
> >> >> Are not these crimes as well? Why should we pay for Word more than
> >> >> once?
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> It won't be long before the CPU is a card in a slot on your ATX videoboard
> >> >> Craig Kelley -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> >> http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP block
> >> >
> >> >From what I've heard, down in Autralia, a group of people sued Toshiba.
> >> >They wanted a refund on the microsoft O/S as they didn't want that O/S.
> >> >They wanted Linux instead.
> >> >Toshiba refunded!
> >>
> >> That's an urban legend. The real story is more interesting. Do some
> >> research.
> >>
> >> --
> >> T. Max Devlin
> >> *** The best way to convince another is
> >> to state your case moderately and
> >> accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
> >
> >So its an urban legend... As I said "From what I've heard" which
> >implies no research at all.
>
> I was honestly hoping you'd do some research. No bother then.
>
> What actually happened was that some people noticed that the Windows OEM
> EULA (sic) claimed that you could "return the product" if you didn't
> agree to the license. Unfortunately, they didn't notice that the
> license also defined "the product" as "a computer", including both
> hardware and OS. How MS came to be able to license OEM's PCs, I do not
> know, but the way the license reads you can only get a refund if you
> return the whole computer. A bunch of people missed this bit, and tried
> to claim refunds from OEMs, from what I heard. But all I know is
> hearsay of such occurrence. So far, I've been told there was an
> organized demonstration in Cleveland, and in New Zealand, at least one
> spontaneous demonstration against an unnamed major OEM, and an exchange
> of letters between some Usenet kook and Toshiba. I haven't any hard
> facts on the subject, which is why I was hoping you'd do some research.
>
> Thanks for your time. Hope it helps.
>
> --
> T. Max Devlin
> *** The best way to convince another is
> to state your case moderately and
> accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
Ok,.... I'll snarf around the net and some hard publications. A big
step would be, if it exists, is the URL to any Australian court files.
Once I do find something about the Toshiba lawsuit, if it exists, it
should lead to a conclusion of settlement or fines.
--
V
------------------------------
From: GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux dying
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 17:09:19 -0800
WesTralia wrote:
>
> Chad Myers wrote:
> >
> > "WesTralia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > Chad Myers wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "WesTralia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > > Chad Myers wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Chad Everett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Will .NET benefit users: no.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Let's see, getting real time flight information, being able to notify
> > > > > > my loved ones 30 minutes before I land so that they can come pick me up,
> > > > > > being instant messaged when I'm outbid on an auction, getting real-time
> > > > > > customer support chat with an American Express customer support
> > > > > > representative...
> > > > > > nah, that doesn't benefit the consumers at all!
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Psssssssst... Mr Myers... all that technology is already in place and
> > > > > available, today!
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Well, you have sort of reworded your original, but here goes.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Psst: no it isn't.
> > > >
> > > > Please show me where I can have my relatives instant messaged when my
> > > > plane is nearing landing.
> > > >
> > >
> > > telephone
> >
> > LOL, right. This is an automatic service? Where can I sign up for this
> > so that the airline notifies them via telephone?
> >
> > Ok, now back to the real world, where can I have this done through
> > an instant messenging service or otherwise through the computer?
> >
>
> It's easier than that! You call them or text message them on your...
> <drum roll, please.....> CELL PHONE!
>
> Chad, here's the schematics for this new fangled technology:
>
> [cell phone] ------ message ------> [cell phone]
> <----- message -------
>
> In fact, I did exactly that returning from London this past month.
>
> > >
> > > > Please show me where I can get real time chat with a customer support
> > > > rep from a major company from MY messenger, not their chumpy web site
> > > > chat.
> > > >
> > >
> > > telephone
> >
> > Which means I have to disconnect from the internet, dial their 800
> > number and wait 30 minutes for a rep, rather than just doing it all
> > online which .NET offers.
> >
>
> <drum roll, please.....> CELL PHONE!
>
> Chad, here's the schematics for this new fangled technology:
>
> [cell phone] ------ message ------> [cell phone]
> <----- message -------
>
> > >
> > >
> > > > Please show me where I can get eBay or another auction site to instant
> > > > message me when I've been outbid, or I can check my bids right from
> > > > one location without having to go their web site?
> > > >
> > >
> > > telephone
> >
> > <sigh> You just don't get it...
> >
>
> <drum roll, please.....> CELL PHONE!
>
> Chad, here's the schematics for this new fangled technology:
>
> [cell phone] ------ message ------> [cell phone]
> <----- message -------
>
> --
Even on the FOX News channel and other financial channels they are
running this commercial about two guys sitting at the airport. One is
fumbling with his laptop and briefcase and another guy has a wireless
palm checking his e-mail and then checking to see if the flight is
on-time. There was even more to it. Note: it doesn't have any
relationship to MS.
--
V
------------------------------
From: Chris Ahlstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
soc.singles,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Piracy???? (KMM187962C0KM)]
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 01:14:11 GMT
Dave Martel wrote:
>
> On Thu, 29 Mar 2001 19:41:33 +1200, Matthew Gardiner
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >I knew atleast one person would find it humorous. When I saw it I though,
> >WHAT, LINUX IS A COMPANY! WHERE THE FUCK IS MICROSOFTS EMPLOYEE'S TRAINED?
> >Gee, I'll just ring up linus and ask the poor barstard whether I can load
> >a linux kernel on more than one computer. Geeze, kids these days (well,
> >thats what Microsoft employees are, kids) not even knowing basic computer
> >industry knowledge in regards to licenses, influencial companies etc.
>
> This does suggest a little tongue-in-cheek fun for someone with the
> resources, though. Start a linux anti-piracy campaign and set up an
> autoresponder for people to report "pirated" copies of linux and
> open-source apps.
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 12:05:55 -0700
To: Chris Ahlstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Piracy? (KMM188223C0KM)
From: Microsoft Anti-Piracy Team <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Microsoft Anti-Piracy Team <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:text/plain; charset = "us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Mailer: Kana 5.0
Hello,
Thank you for contacting the Microsoft Anti-Piracy Team.
The situation that you describe is not a piracy issue. We suggest that
you contact our Sales Dept at 1-800-426-9400.
You may also visit our Internet site on http://www.microsoft.com/piracy
to review additional information on recognizing genuine Microsoft
product and Microsoft's licensing policies.
Again, thank you for your interest in our anti-piracy campaign.
Microsoft Corporation
Worldwide Sales & Support Group
Received Date: 3/27/01
Sender: Chris Ahlstrom
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Original Message Follows:
=========================
Somebody put Linux on my machine. I heard that was
free software. Is that bad?
Thanks in advance,
Chris Ahlstrom
--
[ Do Not Make Illegal Copies of This Message ]
------------------------------
From: GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: New worm infests Linux machines/Exposes root backdoor
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 17:23:06 -0800
Peter Köhlmann wrote:
>
> GreyCloud wrote:
> > Peter Köhlmann wrote:
> >>
> >> Ayende Rahien wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Windows CodeName Whistler, Build 2296
> >> > Uptime: 24 days, 19 hours, 23 Minutes, 20 seconds.
> >> > Reason for last reboot: Needed to installed another PCI video adapter.
> >> > Tasks for next reboot: Need to take out the PCI Video adapter.
> >> > Next reboot due at: When I get XP final.
> >> > Computer uses: Email, Internet, Development (C/C++, Java, VB, .NET,
> >> > ASP), TS Server, firewall, internet connection sharing, Word/Power
> >> > Point, IIS & FTP server (light load, except when developing).
> >> >
> >> Fine for you if those figures where true.
> >> I don?t believe you.
> >> By the way: Someone who puts all that stuff on a *production* machine
> >> *and* puts a firewall too unto it shows clearly that he/she has no real
> >> knowledge about firewalls at all.
> >> IIS alone on that machine is enough to render the firewall meaningless.
> >> A firewall *always* belongs on a different machine, except it?s a
> >> playthingy like ZoneAlarm and the other Personal Firewalls.
> >>
> >> Peter
> >>
> >> --
> >> Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines
> >
> > Hmmm... elucidate on ZoneAlarm... I need to know for my wifes' sake!
> >
>
> Well, first thing, ZoneAlarm checks for "Programs" wanting to do Internet
> access. What in the Win-world will hinder any program to announce itself
> as InternetExploder 7 ? Or to mimick as one of the bazillion plugins
> running inside IE?
> Second, ZoneAlarm can be configured only very coarse regarding the outside
> world.
> Third, it is "ET-Software" (wants to call home), if you haven´t configured
> it correctly already at setup. I have a deep distrust of *any* software
> which does that automatically without my manual intervention.
>
> Peter
>
> --
> A blue screen is nothing to worry about,
> just press [CTRL]+[ALT]+[DEL] and format c:
Now that you mention it, the distrust, do you suppose that ZoneAlarm
could be one of those monitoring programs thats sending data back
home?? I've noticed that when she is on the net reading her e-mail that
the red bars are active a lot.
--
V
------------------------------
From: GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,us.military.army
Subject: Re: Communism
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 17:34:09 -0800
Chad Everett wrote:
>
> Linux Supreme
> >Barry Manilow wrote:
> >>
> >> GreyCloud wrote:
> >>
> >> > Communism in the economic sense is a total failure. It isn't bigotry
> >> > when a tin-pot dictator puts up a nuclear missile system designed to
> >> > annihilate you. Its defense.
> >>
> >> Castro put up those missles in self-defense.
> >
> >
> >You keep telling yourself that, traitor.
> >
> >
>
> Fidel Castro uses Microsoft Windows.
Ah! So that's what has made him so angry lateley.
Too many BSODs.
--
V
------------------------------
From: "green" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: First Cross platform (w32 and Linux) virus
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 11:48:02 +1000
> Some people has *way* too much time on their hands.
>Is there a reason why an ext2 driver in assembly would be written?
for a virus.
------------------------------
From: GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,misc.int-property
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman what a tosser, was Why open source software is
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 17:54:07 -0800
Nick Condon wrote:
>
> Jay Maynard wrote:
> >On 28 Mar 2001 09:43:05 GMT, Nick Condon
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>Jay Maynard wrote:
> >>>If it means making people's intellectual work worthless, then you will
> >>>never succeed in that endeavor.
> >>What a mercenary mindset you have.
> >>zero cost != worthless
> >
> >However, it takes money to keep food in the pantry and the rent paid and
> >Lexus Financial Services from coming to repossess my car. None of those
> >can be done without it. If I can't make money from doing software, then
> >I'll have to do something else that does bring in real dollars.
>
> I've worked in the computer industry my whole career. I've *never* been
> paid a penny of royalties on the work I've done; I've never even met anyone
> who has been paid that way. I get paid by the hour, just like everyone else
> who works in service industry.
>
> >*NOTHING* is truly zero cost. Trying, as you advocate, to distort the
> >equation by removing any possibility of meaningful monetary compensation
> >for someone's intellectual work will simply drive people out of fields
> >to which that applies, thus a) impoverishing large numbers of people,
> >and b) drastically reducing the amount of intellectual work being done.
>
> Rubbish. You are labouring under a number of flawed assumptions. You think
> that software needs to have a resale value, or companies won't pay for it
> to be written. I work in the industry; you want to work in the industry.
> Let me tell you how it works in the real world. 95% of all software is
> developed in house and never offered for sale, so all that work will still
> get done even if it can't be copyrighted. Because it's value is *use* value
> and the developers that wrote it will still get paid; it'll be generous
> hourly rate rather than royalties.
>
I have to agree with you Nick. I worked in the Dept. of the Navy (civ)
and wrote special in house software that helped fill in a need in
GenRads marketed software that we had purchased. Because of the fact
that it wasn't classified and public taxpayer money was used to write
the program, GenRad was given the code. Then GenRad takes the program
to the Anaheim Trade Show and shows it off! This enhanced their product
and I kept getting paid my usual salary. It isn't fair, but thats the
way the cookie crumbles sometimes. :-(
> Secondly, software that is in use gradually falls out of step with real
> world conditions, so it needs to be maintained. Software maintenance, that
> is, making changes to software that already exists, makes up the vast
> majority of what real programmers do. Maintenance will still need to be
> done, those developers will still get paid.
>
> You think that people are mainly motivated by money. Not even the
> economists believe that anymore. You think that without royalty payments,
> people won't write software. The four most critical pieces of
> infrastructure that make the Internet work are The four most critical
> pieces of infrastructure that make the Internet work are BIND [Berkeley
> Internet Name Daemon], Perl, Sendmail, and Apache. Everyone of them is free
> software.
>
> --
> Nick
--
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