Linux-Advocacy Digest #218, Volume #33 Sat, 31 Mar 01 06:13:04 EST
Contents:
Re: Arrrrgh! Hoist the Jolly Roger! (GreyCloud)
Re: Arrrrgh! Hoist the Jolly Roger! (GreyCloud)
Re: Communism (GreyCloud)
Re: Communism (Strabo)
Re: Great opportunity for some Linux advocacy? (PhOeNiX)
Re: Linus for a 386???? (PhOeNiX)
Re: Java, the "Dot-Com" Language? (GreyCloud)
Re: Earn some money with Linux (Nils Zonneveld)
Re: German armed forces ban MS software <gloat!> ("Paul 'Z' EwandeŽ")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Arrrrgh! Hoist the Jolly Roger!
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 02:12:26 -0800
JS PL wrote:
>
> "GreyCloud" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > JS PL wrote:
> > >
> > > "Andy Walker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >
> > > > The only new concept Microsoft have
> > > > introduced is the acceptability of unfinished and buggy code!
> > >
> > > That's strange. According to the United States Patent Office, Microsoft
> has
> > > introduced MANY more concepts than your one example.
> > >
> > >
> http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetaht
> > > ml%2Fsearch-adv.htm&r=0&p=1&f=S&l=50&Query=microsoft&d=pall
> > >
> > > And a search for Microsoft at http://www.delphion.com/ turned up about
> 3500
> > > results. That's about one new patent every three days since 1975. If I
> had
> > > no life like the MS bashing regulars here, I might even peruse some of
> > > Microsoft's innovative concepts in more depth. But why would I? Their
> > > immense success with consumers and developers the least 26 years is
> proof
> > > enough that they provide excellent products at competitive prices. The
> fact
> > > that linux is struggling to maintain a 3 to 1000 computer ratio is proof
> > > enough that nobody want's anything to do with it on the desktop.
> >
> > One could argue that if party A has created a concept and that concept
> > was stolen and then taken to the patent office by party B, that patent
> > doesn't necessarily mean its a new concept... just a new patent.
> >
> > I disagree on the desktop argument. By serving install fests in our
> > local mall, our organization has made it public that there is an
> > alternative to microsofts o/s. Many people aren't aware of Linux
> > because no one has enough money to advertise Linux during prime time
> > TV. Many people that had actually took a test drive of Linux at the
> > mall were really impressed and wanted to know how much it cost. We tell
> > them they even have another alternative in Linux: download it for free
> > or purchase at low cost a distribution. We have shown RedHat, Suse,
> > Caldera, Mandrake, and Slackware as the various distributions.
> >
> > One person wanted to know if he can get a refund from Microsoft if they
> > return the software unused and disagree with the license terms. The End
> > User License Agreement states that one can, but Microsoft won't honor
> > that agreement. Hence the monopoly lawsuits.
>
> I would be willing to bet money that a similar "install fest" at the same
> mall where you put up a booth giving out the latest build of Linux and
> Microsoft showed up giving out WindowsXP when it's released, the XP line
> would be around the block, and the Linux line would be about 1 guy deep and
> 4 guys wide.
No,... I don't think so. You see, with every release of windows, the
user has to keep upgrading to a newer system to maintain the same
response. With the Pentium IV, which is turning into a space heater, it
will run XP just fine.... but not my wifes' PII @ 233 Mhz. Linux offers
the end user the opportunity to hang on to their machines a lot longer
and go a lot easier on the wallet. I introduced my wife to CDE (Common
Desktop Environment) and she liked it a lot better than the Win98se that
she has now. The tide is slowly turning as the common people that buy
off the shelf ready to run computers to find that things worked one way
yesterday and now things are working differently today.
Or, the very frustrated user, putting up with lock-ups or BSODS. The
end user will start viewing this as something akin to a "Lemon". They
will eventually start trying alternatives to get away from these
frustrations. I'm not including NT or W2K in this list as you don't see
these pre-loaded at any of our local stores, but maybe in large cities.
--
V
------------------------------
From: GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Arrrrgh! Hoist the Jolly Roger!
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 02:13:28 -0800
"Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
>
> JS PL wrote:
> >
> > "GreyCloud" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > JS PL wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "Andy Walker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > >
> > > > > The only new concept Microsoft have
> > > > > introduced is the acceptability of unfinished and buggy code!
> > > >
> > > > That's strange. According to the United States Patent Office, Microsoft
> > has
> > > > introduced MANY more concepts than your one example.
> > > >
> > > >
> > http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetaht
> > > > ml%2Fsearch-adv.htm&r=0&p=1&f=S&l=50&Query=microsoft&d=pall
> > > >
> > > > And a search for Microsoft at http://www.delphion.com/ turned up about
> > 3500
> > > > results. That's about one new patent every three days since 1975. If I
> > had
> > > > no life like the MS bashing regulars here, I might even peruse some of
> > > > Microsoft's innovative concepts in more depth. But why would I? Their
> > > > immense success with consumers and developers the least 26 years is
> > proof
> > > > enough that they provide excellent products at competitive prices. The
> > fact
> > > > that linux is struggling to maintain a 3 to 1000 computer ratio is proof
> > > > enough that nobody want's anything to do with it on the desktop.
> > >
> > > One could argue that if party A has created a concept and that concept
> > > was stolen and then taken to the patent office by party B, that patent
> > > doesn't necessarily mean its a new concept... just a new patent.
> > >
> > > I disagree on the desktop argument. By serving install fests in our
> > > local mall, our organization has made it public that there is an
> > > alternative to microsofts o/s. Many people aren't aware of Linux
> > > because no one has enough money to advertise Linux during prime time
> > > TV. Many people that had actually took a test drive of Linux at the
> > > mall were really impressed and wanted to know how much it cost. We tell
> > > them they even have another alternative in Linux: download it for free
> > > or purchase at low cost a distribution. We have shown RedHat, Suse,
> > > Caldera, Mandrake, and Slackware as the various distributions.
> > >
> > > One person wanted to know if he can get a refund from Microsoft if they
> > > return the software unused and disagree with the license terms. The End
> > > User License Agreement states that one can, but Microsoft won't honor
> > > that agreement. Hence the monopoly lawsuits.
> >
> > I would be willing to bet money that a similar "install fest" at the same
> > mall where you put up a booth giving out the latest build of Linux and
> > Microsoft showed up giving out WindowsXP when it's released, the XP line
> > would be around the block, and the Linux line would be about 1 guy deep and
> > 4 guys wide.
>
> Of course...a Microsoft OS that doesn't crash would TRULY be an oddity.
LOL! Kind of like a talking dog.
> --
> Aaron R. Kulkis
> Unix Systems Engineer
> DNRC Minister of all I survey
> ICQ # 3056642
>
> K: Truth in advertising:
> Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shelala,
> Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakan,
> Special Interest Sierra Club,
> Anarchist Members of the ACLU
> Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
> The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
> Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
>
> J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
> The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
> also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
>
> I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
> challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
> between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
> Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
>
> H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
> premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
> you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
> you are lazy, stupid people"
>
> G: Knackos...you're a retard.
>
> F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
> adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
>
> E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
> her behavior improves.
>
> D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
> ...despite (C) above.
>
> C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
>
> B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
> method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
> direction that she doesn't like.
>
> A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
--
V
------------------------------
From: GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: misc.survivalism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.singles
Subject: Re: Communism
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 02:16:23 -0800
"Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
>
> GreyCloud wrote:
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > >
> > > >>>>> Aaron R Kulkis writes:
> > >
> > > Aaron> cHip wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Being a guy who has researched this a lot I'd like to comment on a few
> > > >> things.
> > > >>
> > > >> First of all, anyone who mentions Russian Communism, Chinese Communism,
> > > >> North Korean Communism, etc. as communism---sorry but you're wrong.
> > > >> Those are NOT communism, they are totalitarian governments. Basically
> > > >> they're dictaror governments (layman term, really authoritarian). Anyone
> > > >> who critisizes communism for anything there just doesn't get it.
> > > >>
> > >
> > > Aaron> Ah yes, the usual "that isn't *real* communism" lie.
> > >
> > > Aaron> So...tell us, Mr Wise guy...why are there not *ANY* "real communist"
> > > Aaron> countries in existance....and why is every country which calls itself
> > > Aaron> Communist also a police state?
> > >
> > > Aaron> Accuracy counts, so be precise.
> > >
> > > Communism is a utopian idea which is completely incompatible with
> > > human nature. Hence any attempt to implement it will end in either
> > > capitulation or tyranny. Generally the latter, as anyone driven to
> > > take power is not likely to give it up.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Andrew Hall
> > > (Now reading Usenet in alt.fan.rush-limbaugh...)
> >
> > Very well said.
>
> Not at all. I told him to be precise.
>
> In stead, he gave me a vague denial of utopianism, while not expressing
> the slightest disagreement at all with any communist-style economic and
> social policies.
>
Thats strange... that wasn't the message I was responding to. Something
got botched along the way.
> >
> > --
> > V
>
> --
> Aaron R. Kulkis
> Unix Systems Engineer
> DNRC Minister of all I survey
> ICQ # 3056642
>
> K: Truth in advertising:
> Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shelala,
> Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakan,
> Special Interest Sierra Club,
> Anarchist Members of the ACLU
> Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
> The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
> Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
>
> J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
> The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
> also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
>
> I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
> challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
> between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
> Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
>
> H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
> premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
> you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
> you are lazy, stupid people"
>
> G: Knackos...you're a retard.
>
> F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
> adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
>
> E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
> her behavior improves.
>
> D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
> ...despite (C) above.
>
> C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
>
> B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
> method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
> direction that she doesn't like.
>
> A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
--
V
------------------------------
From: Strabo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: misc.survivalism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.singles
Subject: Re: Communism
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 05:19:19 -0500
Scott Erb wrote:
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Communism is a utopian idea which is completely incompatible with
> > human nature. Hence any attempt to implement it will end in either
> > capitulation or tyranny. Generally the latter, as anyone driven to
> > take power is not likely to give it up.
>
> That's a tad simplistic. Human nature is not necessarily incompatible
> with socialism or communism, but Marxian communism ignored culture and
> politics in its focus on economic determinism. It also, in its
> Leninists variants, saw the state as being able to enforce a complete
> change in society, something that does indeed lead to tyranny. If any
> kind of socialism is ever to be achieved, it will have to be democratic
> and chosen, not enforced. I suspect that is still generations away.
You can have benign absolute rule but once started
down this path, malignancy soon sets in.
------------------------------
From: PhOeNiX <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Great opportunity for some Linux advocacy?
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 10:20:58 GMT
On Fri, 30 Mar 2001 21:20:00 +0200, "Mart van de Wege"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Folks,
>
>Thanks to MS's policies lately, I think we can safely say that it becomes
>ever easier to advocate Linux. We have been over the mandatory
>registration many times, but how is this latest MS outrage for another
>opportunity?
>
>http://www.internetweek.com/newslead01/lead032901.htm
>
>Have fun,
>
>Mart
It's all been bypassed already. Can you say..should have been In
House Testing? Or maybe they don't really give a shite as long as MS
runs (windows XP or Office XP) on almost all computers everywhere.
After all, what's a little piracy when you have total market
domination?
phoenix
_______________________________________________________
In the year 2001, a movie staring Steven Seagal was the
number one movie in America. The final sign of the
apocolypse has come...
------------------------------
From: PhOeNiX <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linus for a 386????
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 10:23:07 GMT
On Fri, 30 Mar 2001 11:09:37 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (BoogerT)
wrote:
>I have a 386 with a 41 meg harddrive and 8 megs of RAM. What would be a good
>linux distro for this machine which would allow me to access the Internet,
>too? If there is one, where would I get it and do documents come with it?
>Thanks in advance,
http://www.debian.org
_______________________________________________________
In the year 2001, a movie staring Steven Seagal was the
number one movie in America. The final sign of the
apocolypse has come...
------------------------------
From: GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,misc.invest.stocks
Subject: Re: Java, the "Dot-Com" Language?
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 02:37:11 -0800
2 + 2 wrote:
>
> J Perry Fecteau wrote in message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> >i actually said the linux thing about dell a while back... they could
> >do it with their own intel servers! they're the only pc company their
> >size that won't suffer from cannibalization by adopting linux.. but
> >michael dell refuses to remove his lips from bill gates' cock two
> >seconds to at least think about it!
>
> As I've stated, Dell sells its $1000- entry level server on Red Hat Linux at
> no extra cost, while Windows 2000 costs about a $1000 more.
>
> I'm talking about the midrange server that Dell is looking to conquer.
>
> Dell has far superior state-of-the-art OEM assembly factories. Also, great
> integration of its web site for selling, with customized pages for each
> approved-for-purchasing model for each big customer.
>
> Sun would provide good brand ambiance.
>
> >as far as sun dying... DREAM ON!!
>
> Who said dying? Sun would live on as a software company like Microsoft.
> Before the downturn, Sun had only about $2 billion annual profits, the same
> as Dell.
>
> After the downturn, who knows what Sun will report. The stock is sinking
> through the floor due to investor profit worries.
>
> Sun has to do a better job of selling enterprise software based on the Java
> platform, where it has the inside advantage.
>
> This is A VAST MARKET of countless billions (the top 500 software companies
> share $200 billion). Sun is already in the top ten of that software market.
>
> (Enterprise software is assuredly not free)
>
> Success means huge profit margins.
>
> There no question that Sun is being mismanaged based on its history as a
> hardware vendor.
>
> Sun has the name cachet to attract the best software talent in the industry.
>
> In the corresponding time of the last 5-6 years, Microsoft has gone from
> having NO PRESENCE in the enterprise software market, to having built an
> infrastructure AND server products that is a rapidly growing sub-segment of
> the company ($5 billion annually last quarter).
>
> I predict that Microsoft will have more profit from this segment this
> quarter than Sun has profits overall. Likewise, I bet a very substantial
> part of Sun profits this quarter will be from software. The hardware segment
> has tanked.
>
> And this is BEFORE the .NET platform goes to manufacturing.
>
> People complain about HailStorm for various reasons, but fail to see that
> this is an infrastructure being pieced together focusing on the DEVICE
> market, the very market that Java was originally developed for.
>
> The economy JITer, the PC tablet, HailStorm and who knows what will be
> coming out. But it will be part of a strategy to provide infrastructure for
> the device market. This will be based largely on business needs.
>
> 2 + 2
>
> >
> >On Fri, 30 Mar 2001 17:54:54 -0500, "2 + 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >>As we see the dot-com meltdown, how do we access all the money wasted on
> >>overpriced software projects that promise the world but deliver very
> little?
> >>
> >>Sun is, no doubt, taking a big hit to its bottom line.
> >>
> >>Perhaps Dell, which has be same profit level as Sun BEFORE the downturn,
> >>will buy Sun for it's midline server hardware business, which it would
> >>promptly convert to Linux, an OS that delivers on its promises.
> >>
> >>Dell could become a dominent Linux server vendor.
> >>
> >>Dell would sell off the Sunsoft division that include Java, etc. Then that
> >>division could concentrate on becoming a software company in competition
> >>with Microsoft.
> >>
> >>That would be good for the industry. Java wouldn't be captive to the
> mission
> >>of selling overpriced Sun servers.
> >>
> >>McNealy could be farmed out to a separate spin off of the chip business.
> Of
> >>course, Scott could still be heard railing against the elements like
> Captain
> >>Ahab, except the White Whale would be Intel.
> >>
> >>We wouldn't want an industry without the Scott to badmouth the
> competition.
> >>
> >>2 + 2
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >J Perry Fecteau
> >Former 6-time Mr. Internet
> >http://perry.fecteau.com/
>From what I'm seeing of Sun the last two weeks they've held pretty solid
on the market.
Sun hasn't been resting on their laurels. They have introduced the sun
blade 100. 64-bit processing for $950. 500 Mhz sparc IIe with 128Mb ram
upto 2Gb. I highly doubt Sun will disappear from the market place, but
will instead keep growing. It'll be awhile before MS comes out with
their 64-bit O/S, which isn't available now. Also the itantium
processor from intel is still having problems. It was supposed to be
out last August, but its still in very limited quantities. Linux has
IA-64 version ready for it, and HP has reportedly developed a UNIX
version for it. The bad part of the Pentium IV right now is its heat
dissipation... 54 watts. Yet the sparc chip doesn't dissipate that much
power. With the rolling black outs and the political push to conserve
power, intels going to have a temporary image problem.
--
V
------------------------------
From: Nils Zonneveld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Earn some money with Linux
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 12:53:15 +0200
"Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
> Just because you write something on Linux doesn't mean that you can't
> keep YOUR code proprietary....because, in fact, you CAN.
>
As I understood it, when you use GPL'ed code in your project, your code
becomes automatically GPL'ed too. Only when you keep your code
completely separated from GPL'ed code it remains proprietary. When you
compile something with gcc, you make at least use of gcc's header files.
So you link your code with GPL'ed code by which your code becomes
GPL'ed. Please correct me if I'm wrong with this.
The reason why people actually buy GPL'ed software is, like you already
stated in another posting, because the extra service, support and/or
manuals you get with the software. Furthermore you can make money by
making tailormade applications for your client, think for example of
e-bussiness servers with Apache/PHP/PostgreSQL (where the latter is
truly free software, under a BSD style license). In 'conventional'
business it is my experience that it is customary for tailormade
projects that the sourcecode becomes available to the client.
Kind regards,
Nils Zonneveld
------------------------------
From: "Paul 'Z' EwandeŽ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: German armed forces ban MS software <gloat!>
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 13:28:30 +0200
"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
<SNIP> Some stuff </SNIP>
> Bah; just admit your argument is weak. Whether its an advocacy forum
People here made the unqualified assertion that Windows can't do it, not in
their experience/opinion, they stated it as fact, wether you have the
intellectual honesty to acknowledge this or not doesn't change that.
I said I've seen Win9x to Win2k format a floppy and do someting at the same
time with no problem and other systems struggle like mad. *You* agreed with
that [remember agreeing with my weak argument ?]. People in
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips had the same experience as me and gave a
hardware explanation for this.
What's your's by the way ?
> makes no difference.
Sure does. If you expect to throw blanket statement and get away with you
are either deluded, or worse beneath the other posters worth.
<MAX> Because I said so ! </MAX>
> >> point, and so defensive that they freak out should anyone slight their
> >
> >If a windows advocate had posted "Lienux [yay ! creative naming ! how
mature
> >!] cannot format a floppy do something else at the same time", the Linux
> >advocate would have understood the rhetorical point and wouldn't have
> >freaked out and come crying for blood. Riiiiight. *You* believe that, I
sure
> >won't..
>
> No, they'd have said "that's not true" because it is *never* true. See
Well I counter their Windows can't format a floppy and chew gum at the same
time because it's not *always* true, you agreed on that, remember. BTW,
evidence that's it's never true ? Because you said so ?
And moreover, why would they bother doing so, there are not the defensive
type, you said it your self.
> the point? And by "never" of course, I mean, in the absolute, not the
I like it how you are able to jump from a rhetorical to an absolute sense
when it suits your "debating" needs. How do you figure the difference in the
post ? Do you read the mind of the poster ? I ask for entertainement
purposes only.
> rhetorical sense. Linux, you see, is not capable of "sometimes" not
Ha ha ha ! Good one ! Please point your browser there:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=fr&safe=off&q=%2BLinux+%2B%22problem+with+a+
floppy%22&btnG=Recherche+Google&lr=
I believe that those people are imagining things. After all Linux is not
capable of sometimes not working, Max said so.
Absolutes, gotta love them, so easy to shoot down.
> working, like proprietary monopoly crapware.
So much for a point stated accurately and moderately.You keep desecrating a
product and yet I'm supposed to be the prejudiced one. Am i the only one
enjoying the irony ? :)
> --
> T. Max Devlin
Paul 'Z' Ewande
------------------------------
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