Linux-Advocacy Digest #258, Volume #33 Sun, 1 Apr 01 17:13:05 EDT
Contents:
Re: Communism, Communist propagandists in the US...still..to this day. (Scott Erb)
Re: Hey, JS PL was Re: Microsoft abandoning USB? (Roger)
Re: Great opportunity for some Linux advocacy? (GreyCloud)
Re: ATTN: Outlook Express Users and Virus's (GreyCloud)
Re: More Microsoft security concerns: Wall Street Journal (Donn Miller)
Re: ATTN: Outlook Express Users and Virus's (GreyCloud)
Re: ATTN: Outlook Express Users and Virus's (GreyCloud)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Scott Erb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
misc.survivalism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.singles,alt.society.liberalism,talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Communism, Communist propagandists in the US...still..to this day.
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 16:38:55 -0400
I couldn't believe the sudden torrent of fascist like threats and
bravado. Apparently the guy does not like being shown that he is wrong
in his world view -- a view which seems based on his own whims, never
supported or substantiated in any way. He did prove to me in this post
that he isn't worth being taken seriously. It takes all kinds, I
guess.
Mathew wrote:
>
> For a person who constantly calls people"little dictators"
> and "fascists" , Aaron certainky takes the cake for personifying
> his own words.
>
> A product of fascist military indoctrination ,no doubt.
>
> On Sun, 1 Apr 2001, Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
>
> > Scott Erb wrote:
> > >
> > > "Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Scott Erb wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > This is why Democracy is *ILLEGAL* at the Federal and State level.
> > > > >
> > > > > What on earth do you mean?
> > > >
> > > > You didn't pay attention in your civics class, did you?
> > > > Either that, or your teacher was some leftist tool.
> > >
> > > Your response is argumentum ad hominem, and thus a fallacy. Anyway,
> > > I've got a Ph.D. in Political Science, so I obviously have studied quite
> > > a bit about political systems.
> >
> > That must be why you are so full of propaganda, and yet miss
> > things that are completely fucking obvious to 4-year olds,
> > such as your ridiculous assertion that races don't exist.
> >
> > To be a fully brainwashed liberal parasite, a PhD is an absolute
> > necessity...and something as utterly WORTHLESS and non-testable
> > as Political Science is a bonus for establishing your credentials
> > as a true-believer.
> >
> > Tell us...if you studied Political SCIENCE...tell us of all
> > the repeatable, verifiable experiments which you perform?
> >
> > After all, that *IS* a necessary pre-requisite for something
> > to be a science.
> >
> > No....no...you didn't study Political *Science*...not at all.
> >
> > You studied Political PROPAGANDA METHODOLOGY.
> >
> > Fortunately, you are easily defeated by anybody who is half-way
> > observant of history and the world around him.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > > You do know, don't know, that a Republic can be democratic?
> > > >
> > > > That's a contradiction in terms.
> > > >
> > > > DEMO-CRACY literally equals "government by the people"
> > >
> > > As I explained, a Democratic Republic is NOT a pure democracy where
> > > majority rules, but a democratic system that is limited by certain
> > > rules, in our case, a constitution.
> >
> > FUCK YOU and your LYING PROPAGANDA SPEWING ASS.
> >
> > There is no "democratic" about it. We are a Republic. More
> > specifically, we are a CONSTITUTIONALLY LIMITED REPUBLIC.
> >
> > NOWHERE in *ANY* government laws and sort of democratic *anything*
> > allowed at the State or Federal level.
> >
> > If you want to run a town, or even a county, as a democracy, you
> > are fully within your rights to do so.
> >
> > But the US Constitution, the SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND, specificies
> > in UNMISTAKABLE language the the United States is a Republic.
> >
> > Not a "democratic republic"....just a Republic.
> >
> > Popular election of Representatives and Senators does *NOT*
> > a democracy make, nor a Democratic Republic make, so you and
> > your PROPAGANDA NOISE about the US being a "democratic Republic"
> > can go take a flying fucking leap off a cliff.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > If you look at the Constitution, it is quite clear that "the people"
> > > > are specifically PROHIBITED from governing the nation....that is
> > > > left to the Senate and the House of Representatives....that is,
> > > > a REPUBLIC (governance by representatives)
> > >
> > > That is called representative democracy.
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> >
> > Wrong. The United Kingdom is a Representative Democracy.
> > However, *WE* do not have a parliamentary system, therefore,
> > we are not a Representative Democracy
> >
> >
> > By the way, it's best not to contradict yourself within a
> > mere one paragraph of your previous statement.
> >
> > To wit, you previously said that the United States is a "democratic
> > republic", and *NOW* you said that it is a "representative
> > democracy".
> >
> > Well, which is it? A Democracy by Representation, or a
> > Republic by Democracy?
> >
> > It can't be BOTH ways.
> >
> > Therefore, I have now demonstrated, by your own definitions,
> > that you lied at least once.
> >
> > Of course...the real truth is that you lied twice. Every time
> > you try to weasel in the word "democracy" to describe our system
> > of government, your are LYING.
> >
> > Remember, Asshole, several MILLION American took an oath to defend
> > the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES against *ALL* enemies, both
> > foreign and domestic.
> >
> > People like you, claiming to have a PhD in Political Science, who
> > then go around telling lies like such as above, qualify, in no
> > uncertain terms, as ENEMIES OF THE CONSTITUTION.
> >
> > Make no doubt about it.
> >
> > Some day...when they you're lined up against the wall, and you
> > feel the hot, searing pain of bullets ripping through your body,
> > literally turning the very cells around the entry wound into
> > a worthless pool of slime in the wound cavity....just remember,
> > that I warned you.
> >
> >
> > Oh..and if you think that you should call the government to
> > come get me...guess what, asshole....I *AM* the government.
> >
> > Not only that, but *YOUR* *TAX* *DOLLARS* go to express purpose
> > of training MILLIONS of people just like me, to kill closet-dictator
> > assholes just like you.
> >
> > Just remember that the next time you advocate the idea that
> > individual rights are unnecessary because you can trust the
> > government to do the right thing.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > People choose their
> > > representatives, and can hold them accountable at election time. The
> > > most pure system of representative democracy is the British system,
> > > which is a parliamentary unitary system (not a Presidential federal
> > > system).
> >
> > The United States is NOT a parliamentary system. Therefore,
> > the premise of your argument is false...which makes the rest
> > of your argument null and void.
> >
> > For a PhD in Political Science, how come you're getting your ass
> > REAMED by an engineer who never even fulfilled the necessary
> > humanities requirements for a degree?
> >
> > If I were you, I'd go back to whatever community college you got
> > your PhD from and demand a fucking refund, because, whatever they
> > taught you in class, it's quite obvious that you didn't learn jack
> > shit about the real world (other than how to lie).
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > -snip-
> > >
> > > > > sets certain rules and procedures within which the democratic aspects of
> > > > > the system function. The term "Liberal Democracy" (used to describe the
> > > > > US and many European states) means a Democratic Republic limited by
> > > >
> > > > The us is NOT a democracy of any type. Whoever told you that the US is
> > > > a "Liberal Democracy" is either ignorant of what the term means, or
> > > > filling your head with propaganda. Likewise for Europe. In fact,
> > >
> > > Alas, you're the one totally out of step with all theory and scholarship
> > > on this issue, as well the history of the US.
> >
> > Said "Scholarship" being the work of your fellow leftist closet-dictators.
> >
> > Oh no, you, and they, *certainly* don't have an axe to grind...other
> > than the fact that you got picked on in high school, and now you're
> > looking for revenge...and the best way YOU can think of is to set
> > up a form of government where you can micromanage their lives.
> >
> > Well, fortunately, because leftist assholes like you refuse to serve in
> > the military...guess what....All the people who actually HAVE THE GUNS...
> > ..you know..the MILITARY GRADE GUNS....the ones with the KEYS TO
> > THE ARMS ROOMS IN THE ARMORIES...and the KEYS TO THE AMMUNITION
> > STORAGE POINTS....guess what...***ALL*** of those people are the very
> > same people who's political views you despise.
> >
> > The police, the army, the FBI, the CIA...leftist assholes like you
> > all shirk your responsibilities as a citizen, to do your part to
> > serve in these organizations...don't you.
> >
> > Therefore...here's a fucking thought that should help you sleep
> > soundly...
> >
> > Those people who's political views you abhor:
> >
> > THEY're the ones who patrol your streets
> > THEY're the ones who have the civil disturbance training.
> > THEY're the ones who run the military
> > THEY're the ones who fly the air force's combat aircraft
> > THEY're the ones who crew the tanks
> > THEY're the ones who man the cannons
> > THEY're the ones who carry the rifles, machine guns, grenade
> > launchers, and all of the other parafarnelia of
> > the infantryman
> >
> > so DON'T FUCK WITH THEM, because THEY ARE THE ONES WHO STAND
> > GUARD WHILE YOU SLEEP!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > I know of *NO* nation on the face of the earth which is a democracy.
> > >
> > > If you look at any text (I'd recommend Hauss' Comparative Politics, or
> > > Juerg Steiner's "European Democracies"), you'd see that all what are
> > > called "democracies" today are Republics of some sort, save perhaps
> > > Great Britain whose link to the Monarchy gives it a different kind of
> > > rationale (though it still functions practically as a democracy, albeit
> > > not limited by a written constitution but agreements between Parliament
> > > and the Crown, and precident).
> > >
> > > No government is a "pure democracy" of majority rule with no limits.
> >
> > Really? Are you absolutely sure?
> >
> >
> >
> > > That is obvious.
> >
> > No, it is not obvious at all.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > > liberal principles (a right to life, liberty, and property, with a focus
> > > > > on individual freedoms, harkening back to philosophers like Locke, it is
> > > > > distrustful of a strong central government).
> > > >
> > > > None of which has to do with Democracy.
> > > >
> > > > Respect for human rights is not democracy. In fact, Democracy is
> > > > particularly DANGEROUS to human rights. Ever hear of the term
> > > > "the Tyranny of the Majority" If "the majority" of easily confused
> > > > and swayed citizens can be rallied to violate your human rights, then
> > > > exactly how does a democracy connote human rights.
> > >
> > > All that is why we have Democratic Republics. That is what the general
> > > term "democracy" means in current usage. If you're attacking crude pure
> > > democracy you're just attacking a straw man, your argument has no
> > > relevance to issues at hand today.
> >
> > You insist on insertin the word Democracy without showing me ANY
> > citations that give you a basis for such a claim.
> >
> > The United States constitution specifically spells out the word
> > REPUBLIC. The word "Democracy" isn't even mentioned. In fact,
> > up until the 1930's, the U.S. Army Basic Training handbook, which
> > is given to each soldier, specifically stated that not only is
> > the United Staes ***NOT*** a democracy, but also (truthfully,
> > I might note), that democracy is the greatest threat to the
> > protection of human rights.
> >
> > Democracy is the last step before dictatorship.
> >
> > Ask the Russians.
> > Ask the Germans.
> >
> > They know.
> >
> > >
> > > > Fortunately, the final protector of the human rights affirmed in the
> > > > Constitution is the 2nd Amendment (Unconditional right to keep and
> > > > bear arms) which gives teeth to all of the others.
> > >
> > > Of course, a fat lot of good that will do you if you try to claim the US
> > > government is illegitimate and try to ignore it. The government can
> > > outescalate you every step of the way.
> > > cheers, scott
> >
> > Clue for the clueless...I ***AM*** the government, you asshole.
> >
> > Specifically, I am part of the very force that you saw will be
> > "sent to get me"....in fact....I would say that 90% or more of
> > the infantrymen,...the guys who you think will be "sent out to
> > get me"....believe the same things as what I stated above.
> >
> > Putting PhD behind your name doesnt change the fact that we all
> > know that you're lying out your ass....
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Aaron R. Kulkis
> > Unix Systems Engineer
> > DNRC Minister of all I survey
> > ICQ # 3056642
> >
> > K: Truth in advertising:
> > Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shelala,
> > Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakan,
> > Special Interest Sierra Club,
> > Anarchist Members of the ACLU
> > Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
> > The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
> > Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
> >
> >
> > J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
> > The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
> > also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
> >
> > I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
> > challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
> > between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
> > Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
> >
> > H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
> > premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
> > you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
> > you are lazy, stupid people"
> >
> > G: Knackos...you're a retard.
> >
> >
> > F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
> > adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
> >
> > E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
> > her behavior improves.
> >
> > D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
> > ...despite (C) above.
> >
> > C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
> >
> > B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
> > method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
> > direction that she doesn't like.
> >
> > A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
> >
> >
------------------------------
From: Roger <roger@.>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Hey, JS PL was Re: Microsoft abandoning USB?
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 15:50:25 -0500
On Sat, 31 Mar 2001 22:27:22 -0500, someone claiming to be JS PL
wrote:
>"Roger" <roger@.> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> Off topic for this thread, but Max has claimed at least two
>> conversations with you re: a problem with IE which was solved by
>> replacement of a video card. Since he originally claimed it was me,
>> in spite of being corrected before (and since it is, after al, Max)
>> I'm inclined to take his recent version of the fantasy with a huge
>> grain of salt.
>>
>> Do you recall the threads he's babbling about?
>I remember having a problem with a bad video driver causing screen freezes a
>couple years ago, right about the time Win98SE came out. It was a problem
>with a Viper V550 and WinSE which reared its ugly head most often while IE
>was open. Changing the card out fixed the problem.
As I thought: driver, not hardware, and not exclusively IE.
Max was lying again.
------------------------------
From: GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Great opportunity for some Linux advocacy?
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 13:55:09 -0700
Mart van de Wege wrote:
>
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "PhOeNiX"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > It's all been bypassed already. Can you say..should have been In House
> > Testing? Or maybe they don't really give a shite as long as MS runs
> > (windows XP or Office XP) on almost all computers everywhere. After all,
> > what's a little piracy when you have total market domination?
> >
> > phoenix
> > _______________________________________________________
> > In the year 2001, a movie staring Steven Seagal was the number one movie
> > in America. The final sign of the apocolypse has come...
>
> And pray tell,
>
> How long will they keep 95% marketshare when they start harassing their
> corporate customers? It's the corporate desktop where Linux can make the
> fastest inroads, thanks to firms as Red Hat and IBM.
> No, this Microsoft strategy of keeping up revenues in a slinking market
> by using bogus licensing audits is going to backfire if they keep it up.
> Next time read the article please,
>
> Mart
> --
> Write in C, write in C,
> Write in C, yeah, write in C.
> Only wimps use BASIC, Write in C.
> http://www.orca.bc.ca/spamalbum/
Yes, and when businesses start getting burned by MS then all linux
admins start tweaking their resumes up. A big backlash may ensue over
this. After all business is now trying to tighten their belts and they
don't need MS digging into their wallets at this time.
--
V
------------------------------
From: GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: ATTN: Outlook Express Users and Virus's
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 13:59:50 -0700
"Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
>
> green wrote:
> >
> > Reality TV crap.
>
> Also known as "broadcast content without having to pay script writers,
> actors, sets, etc."
>
Ok. GAG!! And the stores want me to buy into HDTV. Not much to look
at anymore.
I think I'll keep my 20 year old set.
> > "GreyCloud" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > Matthew Gardiner wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Geeze you yanks have a real problem with a sense of humour.
> > > >
> > > > Matthew Gardiner
> > > >
> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Sat, 31 Mar 2001 14:16:07 +1200, Matthew Gardiner
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > >Use a valid email address to make yourselfa accountable for you
> > posting.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > If you have more than 5 brains cells at your disposal, you'd be able
> > to figure
> > > > > out how to remove the anti-spam crap and e-mail me.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you'd be kind enough to remove all the assholes off the internet,
> > I've be
> > > > > happy to post without an alias. In the meantime, I use an alias to
> > prevent such
> > > > > assholes from doing stuff like looking my address up in the phone book
> > and
> > > > > ordering, fraudulantly, crap that I have to go out of my way to
> > return.
> > > > >
> > > > > Get over it and quit being such a jerk.
> > >
> > > Actually, I'm quite fond of British humour. I liked Allo' Allo' and
> > > "Are you being served?" What is the latest over there currently
> > > running?
>
> --
> Aaron R. Kulkis
> Unix Systems Engineer
> DNRC Minister of all I survey
> ICQ # 3056642
>
> K: Truth in advertising:
> Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shelala,
> Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakan,
> Special Interest Sierra Club,
> Anarchist Members of the ACLU
> Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
> The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
> Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
>
> J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
> The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
> also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
>
> I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
> challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
> between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
> Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
>
> H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
> premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
> you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
> you are lazy, stupid people"
>
> G: Knackos...you're a retard.
>
> F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
> adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
>
> E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
> her behavior improves.
>
> D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
> ...despite (C) above.
>
> C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
>
> B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
> method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
> direction that she doesn't like.
>
> A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
--
V
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 17:02:57 -0400
From: Donn Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: More Microsoft security concerns: Wall Street Journal
"Stephen S. Edwards II" wrote:
> Really now. I would also ask how in the hell
> you've determined that Microsoft has merely
> implemented some 4.4BSD code in order to
> get Windows2000. Do you have access to the
> WindowsNT v4.0 and v5.0 source trees?
Finally, at least we're talking about operating systems and not about
communism, firing squads, etc., and other goofy crap people usually
cross post from COLA to alt.military.wackos, or whatever.
I haven't been able to find any references on the web myself, but the
rumor was as follows. When Win 2000 was still in beta, you could
(allegedly) use one of those OS guessing programs that examined the TCP
signature to guess what OS was on the server. The results returned
"FreeBSD 3.3" or something or other. Or was it FreeBSD 3.2?
Haven't been able to find any info backing this up, although it was
talked about on usenet for some time while Win 2000 was still in beta.
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
======= Over 80,000 Newsgroups = 16 Different Servers! ======
------------------------------
From: GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: ATTN: Outlook Express Users and Virus's
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 14:02:11 -0700
Matthew Gardiner wrote:
>
> Well, the ones I watch are:
>
> Ben Elton
Never saw it.
> The Young One (I know, I know, its old, but its a classic)
> Monty Pythons Flying Circus
> The Ali G Show
Never saw it.
> One Foot in the Grave
That ones fairly funny, especially when you get tied up in caregiving
issues.
> Father Ted
> Vicar of Dibbly
These two haven't seen.
I suppose they'll eventually get here on our PBS network. I'll be
looking forward to these!
>
> Matthew Gardiner
>
> GreyCloud wrote:
>
> > Matthew Gardiner wrote:
> > >
> > > Geeze you yanks have a real problem with a sense of humour.
> > >
> > > Matthew Gardiner
> > >
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Sat, 31 Mar 2001 14:16:07 +1200, Matthew Gardiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>wrote:
> > > > >Use a valid email address to make yourselfa accountable for you posting.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > If you have more than 5 brains cells at your disposal, you'd be able to figure
> > > > out how to remove the anti-spam crap and e-mail me.
> > > >
> > > > If you'd be kind enough to remove all the assholes off the internet, I've be
> > > > happy to post without an alias. In the meantime, I use an alias to prevent
>such
> > > > assholes from doing stuff like looking my address up in the phone book and
> > > > ordering, fraudulantly, crap that I have to go out of my way to return.
> > > >
> > > > Get over it and quit being such a jerk.
> >
> > Actually, I'm quite fond of British humour. I liked Allo' Allo' and
> > "Are you being served?" What is the latest over there currently
> > running?
--
V
------------------------------
From: GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: ATTN: Outlook Express Users and Virus's
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 14:05:02 -0700
Matthew Gardiner wrote:
>
> You poor barstard, putting up with all the dire crap made up by Septic Tanks.
>
> Matthew Gardiner
>
> Roy Culley wrote:
>
> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > >
> > > Actually, I'm quite fond of British humour. I liked Allo' Allo' and
> > > "Are you being served?" What is the latest over there currently
> > > running?
> >
> > Those are hardly good examples of british humour. Like anyone else
> > we have bad as well as good comedy. Having been out of the UK for
> > about 15 years I can't say what great comedy programs they have
> > now (I do get BBC Prime but the comedy on that is either on a par
> > with "Are you being served?" or repeats of Black Adder). Great
> > British humour was the likes of Monty Python, Not the Nine O'Clock
> > News, Spitting Image, etc. I presume, hope, that they still produce
> > comedy of this uniquely british kind.
Pretty much accurate "Septic Tanks". If TV over here doesn't improve
I'll just let my TV keep running till it croaks and not buy another one.
--
V
------------------------------
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