Linux-Advocacy Digest #635, Volume #33 Mon, 16 Apr 01 00:13:03 EDT
Contents:
Re: Has Linux anything to offer ? (webgiant)
Re: Has Linux anything to offer ? (webgiant)
Re: Could Linux be used in this factory environment ? ("Erik Funkenbusch")
Re: To Eric FunkenBush (Donn Miller)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (webgiant )
Subject: Re: Has Linux anything to offer ?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 03:08:10 GMT
On Thu, 12 Apr 2001 01:12:10 GMT, "Doug Patterson"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I just picked up RedHat7 and am trying my best to like it. I really want it
>to work, but a lot of these armuments are true....
>
>"GreyCloud" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> "roger$@a" wrote:
>> >
>> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Rex says...
>> >
>> > > If you are a student who
>> > >would like to learn the principles of UNIX, if you are the secretary
>> > >of a non-profit and want
>> > >to put up a web-site, or if you just want to chat and e-mail, Linux
>> > >has some
>> > >really great tools to do this.
>> > >
>> >
>> > The problem is that on Linux, there is no consistant and coherant way
>> > with how applications work. One can't cut/paste from one app to
>> > another like on windows. Application quality in general are less of
>> > those that exist on widnows.
>> >
>> > Let take some examples:
>> >
>> > 1. Using IE 6.0 beta, If I am on a web page, and do 'save', IE is
>> > smart enough not only to save the HTML page itself, but also to
>> > create a subdirectory with all the gif files on that page. This means
>> > when one views the locally saved HTML page later on, it comes up with
>> > all the images intact on it. There is nothing like this on Linux.
>
>Let's talk about browsers. NetScape 4.7X renders text terribly on my setup.
>Opera renders much better, but doesn't support Java, which NetScape does. I
>haven't found a good browser for Linux that supports Java. If there is one,
>somebody please let me know!
>
>> > 2. On windows, I can drag an image from my Visio document to my word
>> > document and have it show up there. There is nothing like this on linux.
>
>Amen.
Funny, I can drag between applications in StarOffice.
[snip!]
>> > 5. On linux, it is still very hard to get a system working using
>> > anti-aliased fonts, without more user hacks and configurations. On
>> > windows, it comes build in and the user has to do nothing more.
>
>I still can't figure out how to install any fonts beyond what was installed
>with the OS. When I tried, the font name showed up in the app (StarOffice,
>for example), but displayed only a some system font I couldn't even resize.
>I found conflicting sets of instructions on how to install fonts, all of
>them very complex. With Windows I can drag TTF files into the font folder
>and everything works.
>> > 6. Printing on Linux is broke. On widnows, setting up a printer requires
>> > no hacks as on linux. It just works.
>>
>> Printing is easy. I find that my Epson printer works better under linux
>> than it ever has under windows. Why did Epson replace windows' print
>> manager with their own?
>> Because the windows print manager does not respond quickly or none at
>> all. Try like 5 to 10 minutes to stop a print job. (Win9x series)
>
>RedHat doesn't even come with a driver for my Panasonic KXP-1123 dot matrix!
>Good grief. How basic can you get? It sook some experimentation to find a
>"close enough" driver for my HP DJ810c (works well), but NOTHING works with
>the Panasonic.
What, you've got some buggy version of Linux that doesn't have an
EPSON driver?
I never had a driver in DOS for MY Panasonic KXP-1092, I just used the
EPSON driver and had a good time!
>An still, no USB printing!
While USB is in Kernel 2.4, why would you want to use buggy USB
printing?
>> > 7. On Linux, there are many different desktop environments, each work
>> > differently. Applications written for one, might not work as expected
>> > on another. On windows, there is one way to do it, making developer life
>> > much simpler and users are familiar with how GUI applications are
>> > expected to behave.
>>
>> I've never had a problem with different window managers. I'm using Motif
>> 1.4 and have easily compiled games from other Linux distros without any
>> problems. The underlying core are the X-libs.
>
>Pick one and stick with it. Gnome is pretty good, if it isn't crashing. KDE
>is worthless;
I disagree with the KDE suggestion, even though I usually go with the
Enlightenment GNOME desktop when I have the system resources.
>how can an average user figure out the ppp configuration
>porgram? Who the heck knows what PAP is? The help system is totally
>worthless...unless you are experienced with Linux. For a newbie like me
>there is no mercy.
KPPP is amazingly easy to use. Hint: if you don't know what it is,
and Linux doesn't ask you to put a value in it, Don't Mess With It,
and your system will work fine. Another hint: your ISP knows what PAP
is, and whether or not they use it. Final hint: if your ISP has such
awful tech support that they don't know how to do a Linux connection,
DROP THEM LIKE A HOT BRICK. Largely because they obviously have the
intelligence of a hot brick.
[snip!]
>> > >Some people like it because they like having the power and stability
>> > >of a UNIX system.
>> >
>> > win2k is VERY stable. The stability claim is getting too old now.
>> > need to find a new one.
>>
>> Tell that to the space crew up above. NT crashed quite often. Only the
>> Russians know what their laptop is running and it didn't crash.
>
>I hardly ever have problems with Win98SE or NT4Sp6.
I have regular problems with Win98, and I can't use Win98SE because
Micro$oft left out some important networking drivers required for
cable modems.
>RedHat has been a true pain. Gnome locked up so tight that Linux refused
>to shut down. I had to pull the plug.
Are you booting straight into the GUI? If so, hit Ctrl-Alt-F7 to exit
X, then--once you're in console (text-only) mode, hit Alt-F2 to open a
new session, login as root, and type
ps aux
Look for a process name (off on the far right column) with the name of
your window manager. Look to the left for the process number.
Type "kill ####" where the number is the process number.
Now, you;re probably saying something like "well, its easier in Win98,
all you do is hit Ctrl-Alt-Del and the task manager pops up". One
thing you're forgetting: did it EVER take only one try to end a task?
I've never ended a task in less than two Ctrl-Alt-Delete then "End
Task" commands! Its usually taken three or more! And it even pops up
a window asking you if you really want to kill the process, as if
already needing to Press Ctrl-Alt-Del three times didn't indicate a
willingness to kill the process!
Linux KILL, on the other hand, doesn't fool around. Tell Linux to
kill a process, it is DEAD on the FIRST TRY.
>Other times I have had to shutdown and restart X because it
>begins to slow like an overloaded Windows98 system.
Note that instead of rebooting the ENTIRE COMPUTER, you could simply
reboot the GUI.
What happens when the same thing happens in Win98? Reboot the whole
computer, of course!
>Also, programs load slower than in Windows,
...but crash less often. You've mentioned the GUI crashing, but you
haven't mentioned any apps crashing.
>and if I'm downloading anything the whole system runs in slow motion.
Sounds like downloads have a slightly higher priority setting. You
can reset downloads to have a lower priority.
Win98, by contrast, will simply STOP if the download develops an error
and demands the entire CPU. It can do that in Win98.
>> > In summary:
>> > -----------
>> > The Linux KERNEL is good. No one can argue about that. But to have
>> > an OS for the end user has nothing to do with the KERNEL. The
>> > main problem with Linux as and end user, is that there is no overall
>> > guiding strategy and design to drive it. Each linux group decide to make
>> > something as they please, a new Linux flavour is out each month. We now
>> > have 75 Linux distro and counting. No standard way to do anything. From
>> > application installation to printer setup to configuring the network.
>> >
>> > It is like being in the kitchen with 20 cooks making one big dinner.
>Each
>> > want to do the dinner their own way.
>> >
>> > Unless this is fundemantly chaned, linux will never compete with windows
>> > on the desktop. windows still claims 90% of the desktop. The reason is
>> > simple. It is simple to use and consistant in the way it works.
>> >
>> > Making something simple and easy to use is something the Linux advocates
>> > find very hard to understand. Users do not want 20 different ways to do
>> > the same thing. Users want the OS to hide the complixity of the machine
>> > from them. Users want an OS that is easy to configure and manage and
>use.
>> >
>> > So far, windows is winning in this area, if it were not, it would not
>> > have 90% market share. (of course, you will blame this on MS marketing,
>> > right?)
>>
>> Right now I get pleas for help in the home windows area. Always have to
>> defrag their hard drives, boot up in Dos, do a scanreg /fix, and a
>> scanreg /opt. Depending on the user you have to do this about once a
>> week on various brands of hardware. I do not call this reliable. Now
>> people are asking "Is there another machine out there that doesn't use
>> Microsoft?" Yes, either get one with linux pre-installed, like HP, or
>> buy a Mac.
>> Windows is winning only because of marketing strategy and the usual P.T.
>> Barnum effect.
>>
>> If you don't want to run games, get a 64-bit Sun Blade 100 for $950 with
>> Solaris 8.
>> If you want to run games there is the PCI card for $400 to plug in to
>> run windows.
>
>I have one more to add: software installation. I downloaded WordPerfect 8,
>unzipped it, un"tar"ed it, and it refused to install. Oh, well.
WordPerfect8 is a kludge Corel created. IT isn't real Linux code, it
is Windows code developed to run under a special version of WINE (WINE
Is Not an Emulator) and WINE is known to still have some bugs in it.
>Downloaded a small GNU-license word processor to upgrade the early
>version that came with RedHat. It said I needed to update several libraries
>and gave their cryptic names. Now what? How much time will it take to
>hunt these down? To some of you guys who lived with Unix since your
>college days this may be fine, but to a small business user who wasn't born
>with Unix in his genes and who needs his tools to work, this way of operating
>is unacceptable.
I'd like to know the name of the GNU-license word processor you're
making claims about, and whether or not you downloaded the version
that runs with RedHat 7.
>Windows apps just install any needed DLL updates (though
>that has it's own share of problems, but at least you can use the app).
And before the DLLs are installed, what does the Windows app do?
Crash, most likely.
>I think it was Winston Churchill who said, "Democracy is the worst form of
>government, except for all the others." I think you could change the first
>clause of this to "Windows is the worst PC OS,..."
The accurate statement is "Windoze is the worst PC OS, thanks to all
the others."
Linux has not succeeded largely due to Windoze marketing practices.
If you had Linux pre-installed when you bought the computer, you
wouldn't have had a problem.
Also, if you had read the manual that came with your Panasonic
printer, you would have known in advance that the Epson driver works
with the Panasonic printer line.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (webgiant )
Subject: Re: Has Linux anything to offer ?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 03:28:09 GMT
On Thu, 12 Apr 2001 23:17:02 +0900, "Osugi Sakae"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In article <Kh7B6.4251$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Doug
>Patterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> I just picked up RedHat7 and am trying my best to like it. I really want
>> it to work, but a lot of these armuments are true....
>
>[snip]
>
>>> > Let take some examples:
>>> >
>>> > 1. Using IE 6.0 beta, If I am on a web page, and do 'save', IE is
>>> > smart enough not only to save the HTML page itself, but also to
>>> > create a subdirectory with all the gif files on that page. This means
>>> > when one views the locally saved HTML page later on, it comes up with
>>> > all the images intact on it. There is nothing like this on Linux.
>> Let's talk about browsers. NetScape 4.7X renders text terribly on my
>> setup. Opera renders much better, but doesn't support Java, which
>> NetScape does. I haven't found a good browser for Linux that supports
>> Java. If there is one, somebody please let me know!
>
>6.0 beta is very new, right? So this is a bleeding edge feature, one that
>isn't in 5.0 or 5.5? And you count it against Linux browsers cause they
>don't have it? (Talking about saving the pics).
Actually, this feature is on stable IE 5.0.
>But you are wrong when you say there is nothing like it on Linux. Wget
>and several others like it are capable of that and a whole lot more. They
>aren't browsers, but they accomplish the same thing.
I think the point being made is that it does it "out of the box". The
problem with the "feature" is that it runs through the webpage you're
downloading and changes all the IMG tags to absolute paths. If you
try to copy it to some other disk, the IMG tags all can't find the
images and the page displays without images.
I have to do MORE WORK to download a page in IE than I need to do in
Netscape or Opera, because in those two browsers I can download the
images myself and the website HTML doesn't change into something I
have to edit later!
>I don't know about java support, but speaking for myself, i haven't found
>a site / page that used java in any way that was important for me.
I enjoy one Java game (AI Pengo, do a search on Yahoo for "ai pengo").
Every other time I've tried to use Java, on a Windoze machine in IE
and in Netscape, its been pretty much a "well, lets see when the
computer crashes THIS time".
Opera has a browser which appears to be my dream come true: a browser
which can't run Java and thus will never crash because some website
decided to use buggy Java. The fact that a "free" adware version of
Opera exists makes it even better.
>>> > 2. On windows, I can drag an image from my Visio document to my word
>>> > document and have it show up there. There is nothing like this on
>>> > linux.
>>
>> Amen.
>
>None of the windows users i know has ever used this or any other drag n
>drop feature.
Yeah, usually they just cut-n-paste like every Linux application does.
>Every single windows user i know has experienced crashes,
>bsods, and general unpredictable behavior. Just recently, my win98j
>machine at work lost about half its fonts for no reason. A coworker's
>machine crashed when he tried to print from Word (never mind he prints
>every day and usually it doesn't crash). But sure, dragging an image from
>one document to another might be important to some people. Me, I prefer
>stability and predictability.
>
>>> > 3. On Windows, when one starts a CD writes, the writes software
>>> > automatically scans scsi and ide devices and locates the CD-W device.
>>> > On linux, one must compile the kernel and do other hacks to get this
>>> > to work.
>>>
>>> Not anymore. Modules allows one to add changes to the kernel without
>>> rebooting. CD-RW is now part of the more popular distros. The kernel
>>> hacking is never needed with these devices... it was something done a
>>> few years ago. Time changes things.
>
>For the record, Mandrake 7.1 and 7.2 set set my burner up just fine. I
>have burned about 70 to 100 discs or so without a single failure.
I'm considering Mandrake for precisely this reason. I prefer
Enlightenment to the KDE desktop manager Mandrake defaults to, but I'm
eager to start using the CD Kreator that comes with KDE. One thing it
has that no other CDburning software has, especially the CDBurning
apps for Windows, is an option for Audio CDs that equalizes the volume
for all tracks to the volume on the first track. For those of us who
tape off the radio, rip from varying volume CDs, and even trade MP3s,
the volumes vary from sound file to sound file. Having a CD where you
don't have to adjust the volume between tracks would be quite nice for
the driving CDs I create from the music I listen to.
>>> > 4. On linux, each distro has it own way interface and methods of how
>>> > to configure and update the system. On widnows there is one way.
>
>>> > 5. On linux, it is still very hard to get a system working using
>>> > anti-aliased fonts, without more user hacks and configurations. On
>>> > windows, it comes build in and the user has to do nothing more.
>> I still can't figure out how to install any fonts beyond what was
>> installed with the OS. When I tried, the font name showed up in the app
>> (StarOffice, for example), but displayed only a some system font I
>> couldn't even resize. I found conflicting sets of instructions on how to
>> install fonts, all of them very complex. With Windows I can drag TTF
>> files into the font folder and everything works.
>
>Like I said, my win98j system is suddenly and for no obvious reason
>missing about half the fonts, including most of the TT fonts. Nothing has
>worked. No one can even explain why or how they went missing. So great,
>you can easily add fonts. What do you do when your system loses them?
>
>And DrakeFont in Mandrake adds fonts just fine thank you.
So it seems that Mandrake is a distro for the newbies. :)
>>> > 6. Printing on Linux is broke. On widnows, setting up a printer
>>> > requires no hacks as on linux. It just works.
>>>
>>> Printing is easy. I find that my Epson printer works better under
>>> linux than it ever has under windows. Why did Epson replace windows'
>>> print manager with their own? Because the windows print manager does
>>> not respond quickly or none at all. Try like 5 to 10 minutes to stop a
>>> print job. (Win9x series)
>>>
>> RedHat doesn't even come with a driver for my Panasonic KXP-1123 dot
>> matrix! Good grief. How basic can you get? It sook some experimentation
>> to find a
>> "close enough" driver for my HP DJ810c (works well), but NOTHING works
>> with the Panasonic. An still, no USB printing!
>
>I've had no problems with printing. At work though, ha!, printer problems
>at about one a week. The other day, the printer stopped printing a large
>pdf file half way through. For no reason. Then, trying to kill it from
>the print manager (after waiting 10 minutes in hopes it would continue)
>did nothing. Anyhow, my $200 Brother laser printer at home (on linux)
>prints (at a guess) about 5 times faster than the really expensive laser
>printer at work (using Windows). Apples and oranges prolly, but still
>always surprises me.
The poster hasn't read his Panasonic Printer Manual in a long time.
The Panasonic printer manual lists driver compatibilities, and one
listed is the Epson driver. Since I too had a Panasonic dot matrix
printer for years, I've always used the Epson driver with it, first in
DOS and then briefly (until the ribbons gave out) in RH5.2.
>>> > 7. On Linux, there are many different desktop environments, each work
>>> > differently. Applications written for one, might not work as expected
>>> > on another. On windows, there is one way to do it, making developer
>>> > life much simpler and users are familiar with how GUI applications
>>> > are expected to behave.
>>>
>>> I've never had a problem with different window managers. I'm using
>>> Motif
>>> 1.4 and have easily compiled games from other Linux distros without any
>>> problems. The underlying core are the X-libs.
>>
>> Pick one and stick with it. Gnome is pretty good, if it isn't crashing.
>> KDE is worthless; how can an average user figure out the ppp
>> configuration porgram? Who the heck knows what PAP is? The help system
>> is totally worthless...unless you are experienced with Linux. For a
>> newbie like me there is no mercy.
>
>KDE is far from worthless and Gnome is quite stable (or so i hear).
>Still, just about any window manager is better than the pathetic gui that
>is windows. where are the multiple desktops? How can I customize the
>right click menu? Or the middle button menu (there ain't one right?)
>Where are the usuable dock apps ala Window Maker? Those tiny icons
>chained to the Windows system tray are almost worthless.
Yes, it is nice to be able to change the Panel apps quickly and
easily. In Windoze you're limited to being able to turn off whatever
junk an application installer threw into the systray, and spend a lot
of time trying to guess how to remove stuff from it.
I happen to really enjoy IceWM, largely because the menu and the panel
are SO easy to edit. There isn't even documentation telling you how
to change them (other than "these text files control the menu and the
panel") and anyone could figure out how to edit them!
>>> > >Some people like it because they like having the power and stability
>>> > >of a UNIX system.
>>> >
>>> > win2k is VERY stable. The stability claim is getting too old now.
>>> > need to find a new one.
>>>
>>> Tell that to the space crew up above. NT crashed quite often. Only
>>> the Russians know what their laptop is running and it didn't crash.
>>
>> I hardly ever have problems with Win98SE or NT4Sp6. RedHat has been a
>> true pain. Gnome locked up so tight that Linux refused to shut down. I
>> had to pull the plug. Other times I have had to shutdown and restart X
>> because it begins to slow like an overloaded Windows98 system. Also,
>> programs load slower than in Windows, and if I'm downloading anything
>> the whole system runs in slow motion.
>
>What are your system specs? How could gnome possible have affected your
>computers power switch? What programs load more slowly than on Windows?
>Sounds like you are trying to do too much with too little.
>
>BTW, my current uptime is a little over 18 days - been running seti@home
>the whole time, played the occassional game, burned a few cds, left
>gnutella running for close to 2 whole days, turned netscape, mozilla,
>pan, and licq on and off too many times to count, and have been listening
>to mp3s most of the time that i have been home. Oh and installed and
>tried to get a few games working with wine. All in the last 18 days and
>all without a single system crash (and only one or two crashed programs),
>reboot, or even slowdown. YMMV, but don't expect me to believe that this
>would be possible on a win9x machine. Maybe on w2k, but why pay for that
>barebones os when i can get everything i want and need plus a whole lot
>more for free?
>
>>> If you don't want to run games, get a 64-bit Sun Blade 100 for $950
>>> with Solaris 8. If you want to run games there is the PCI card for $400
>>> to plug in to run windows.
>>
>> I have one more to add: software installation. I downloaded WordPerfect
>> 8, unzipped it, un"tar"ed it, and it refused to install. Oh, well.
>> Downloaded a small GNU-license word processor to upgrade the early
>> version that came with RedHat. It said I needed to update several
>> libraries and gave their cryptic names. Now what? How much time will it
>> take to hunt these down? To some of you guys who lived with Unix since
>> your college days this may be fine, but to a small business user who
>> wasn't born with Unix in his genes and who needs his tools to work, this
>> way of operating is unacceptable. Windows apps just install any needed
>> DLL updates (though that has it's own share of problems, but at least
>> you can use the app).
>
>Actually, compared to add / remove programs on win98, rpm and kpackage
>are great. sure, you sometimes (rarely) need a new lib or something, but
>they are not that hard to find (www.rpmfind.net). But these days, this
>really isn't an issue unless you live on the bleeding edge. And do you
>think your small business user is going anywhere near the bleedin'
>bleeding edge? They get everything they need from the standard install.
>Updates they can get from their distro company, the same place they get
>their support.
>
>> I think it was Winston Churchill who said, "Democracy is the worst form
>> of government, except for all the others." I think you could change the
>> first clause of this to "Windows is the worst PC OS,..."
>
>Yes, iirc it was WC. The worst os depends on who wants what from their
>computers. Typical users don't know anything about their computers and
>want everything to be 'easy' and familiar. The only os they have ever
>used is windows, which everyone claims is the 'easiest'. What can they
>compare their experiences against? Many have never used a mac, much less
>a linux gui. At best, maybe they can compare w2k to win3.1 and think
>"this is much better."
>
>Me, I try to use windows (have to at work) but keep running into
>problems - where is perl, why isn't it already installed? Why do i have
>to go and get something as basic as winzip--where is windows zip support?
>Why does word keep pestering me about saving in text format? I know it
>is text, i set it up that way in the options. Where is the screen capture
>tool? The md5sum exe? The shred exe? Where are the themes? The extra
>desktops? The network monitoring dockapps? why isn't tex already
>installed? (you are a f**king idiot if you think word printouts look
>anywhere near as good as tex printouts.) For that matter, where is
>postscript support on windows?
>
>All these things and more make me want to run home to my linux
>box.
Fortunately, I can bring mine with me. When WinNT at work goes down,
as it does on a weekly basis, I can whip out my Slackware 7.1 laptop
(486DX/75, SVGA, 1GB drive, 16MB physical plus 64MB swap) and still
get some work done until the IT guys finish figuring out what crashed
it THIS time.
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.hardware,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Could Linux be used in this factory environment ?
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 22:29:35 -0500
"Hartmann Schaffer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In article <_DrC6.3490$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
> >"franek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> I could never understand this enamoration with HTML-based interfaces.
> >There's a good case
> >> for using HTML in a normal web-based environment, but why the hell one
> >would want to use
> >> this crude and slow method in a standalone system is beyond me.
> >
> >Well, there are a lot of reasons why one might want to do this.
> > ...
>
> all the reasons you give describe a thin client arrangement, i.e. a client
> that only does the user interaction and communication with the server.
that
> doesn't mean it has to be html
You're ignoring the one about management. Consider that many factories
operate 24/7, which means they never shut down the terminals and the
"application" runs constantly. When you upgrade the application, the
terminals are still running it. You have to get all the clients to shutdown
and load the new version.
Yes, you could write a script to connect to the machines and kill the
processes and restart it, but what if those terminals are in use when you do
this?
The web based solution works well, because once you've updated the
application, the next time they load a page it uses the new version
automatically.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 23:45:23 -0400
From: Donn Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: To Eric FunkenBush
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
> Nope. very few people (compared to the general C++ programming population)
> use templates at all. I'd say less than 10% in my experience. The vast
> majority of people out there are working on maintenance of legacy code.
> They're not going to introduce templates into that very often.
I sort of felt the same way when namespaces were introduced. I thought
they were uncessary, because you can simulate a namespace with a
"struct". Also, I think it's dangerous for C++ to be deviating too far
from C, because most view C++ as a "C with classes". I know the C99
spec introduced the concept of using a type qualifier inside loops, and
other scopes like C++ does. This in contrast to the C89 spec, which
absolutely requires you to declare all variables at the start of a
block, which is very annoying and restrictive, IMO. I don't think gcc
2.95 supports C99 yet, though. (I think 2.95 is still stuck with the
C89 spec, but don't know if they've carried over any C99 features yet.)
In theory, I think C and C++ should be merged into C++. But since C++
is so rapidly evolving, it's best to keep them separated. In FreeBSD
terminology, C is like FreeBSD-stable, and C++ is like FreeBSD-current.
Some features like the type qualifier inside loops is like the
occasional feature you see MFC's to -stable.
OK, so I know more about FreeBSD than Linux, which is why I mentioned
it. Sorry. 8-)
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