Linux-Advocacy Digest #593, Volume #34 Fri, 18 May 01 10:13:04 EDT
Contents:
Re: Rather humorous posting on news.com commentry forum: (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Linux beats Win2K (again) (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Rather humorous posting on news.com commentry forum: (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Linux beats Win2K (again) (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Rather humorous posting on news.com commentry forum: (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Mandrake 8 sets the standard - for Desktop users anyway. (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Mandrake 8 sets the standard - for Desktop users anyway. (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Solaris 8 vs 7/2.x.... ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Linux posts #1 TPC-H result (W2K still better) ("Edward Rosten")
Re: Campaign: Microsoft Free by October 1st ("Edward Rosten")
Re: Rather humorous posting on news.com commentry forum: (Martin Kudlich)
Re: Why Linux Is no threat to Windows domination of the desktop ("Edward Rosten")
Re: Why Linux Is no threat to Windows domination of the desktop ("Edward Rosten")
Re: Win 9x is horrid (Dan Pidcock)
Re: Analysis of the Linux Report from MS (Dan Pidcock)
Re: Linux posts #1 TPC-H result (W2K still better) ("Edward Rosten")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Rather humorous posting on news.com commentry forum:
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 14:03:30 +0100
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] says...
> Nope, it shows the end user is, by default, a complete and utter moron beyond
> belief. One only needs to go into a super market, and see the number of
> people who put their eggs and bread first on the conveyer belt at the
> checkout. The number of users who want to get a P4 because it has a "bigger
> number than PIII". Or, because Bill Gates says its good, obviously he's
> right. Better still, users, who buy crap machines from Compaq, IBM and HP,
> then one year down the track they want to upgrade something, say the graphics
> card because they heard from a friend that their game will run better, and
> get told by their local computer shop that they can't upgrade.
Such an attitude towards an end user will not serve you well in dealing
with such people (if they even exist). It smacks of a kind of arrogance,
and lacking of humility etc.
> It is about time the end user got out of this ignorance. These are the exact
> same people who protest against globalisation and Free Tebet, they know
> diddly squat about, but because some communist, aka, trade unionist rants on
> the news about things, because it would mean the end of their pampered union
> lifestyle, and whats worse, they, the ignorant public, believe them!
Trade Union != Communism.
--
---
Pete Goodwin
All your no fly zone are belong to us
My opinions are my own
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux beats Win2K (again)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 13:59:33 +0100
In article <9e1c0i$g38$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] says...
> > Ah, I can go into my local PC world and buy one of these supercomputers
> > can I? It's an off the shelf easily affordable machine, is that so?
>
> Don't be such a twit. Firstly is a real computer being used for a real
> purpose, by real people (as opposed to something used just for
> benchmarks) in the real world or not?
Don't be such a twit yourself.
> Can I go down to the local marina and buy a supertanker? Is is an easily
> affordable, off the shelf ship? No its not, so i guess supertankers don't
> exist in the real world.
Now you're being ridiculous.
> What about helicopters? Can't afford one or get one easily? They don't
> exist either. Same goes for satelites. And open cast mining equipment.
> None of it exists in the real world because you can't afford it.
...even more so.
> Oh, and Boeing 747's don't exist either. Remember that when you next go
> on holiday. Oh and in case you go by ferry or train, those don't exist
> either because you can't afford the.
...yet more.
> > Your definition of "real world" is fascinating. Out here in the _real_
> > real world, it's Windows that is dominating, not Linux.
>
> I was talking about scalibility, and price/performance. Which one wins?
Who cares if it wins in this very small slice of the market! Linux is
losing _big time_ in the _dominant_ market!
> Besides, don't forget that your segment of the real world is the *only*
> one.
True. However it's a lot _bigger_ than the slice you're looking at.
> > In one small percentage of the whole market. Not enough.
>
> I was illustrating that in the *real* world as opposed to wired
> benchmarks, linux thrashes Win2K in terms of scalibility and
> price/performance.
You emphasis on *real* makes me suspect your definition of reality.
> Are you going to deny that a supercomputer is a prefectly real world
> example of huge scalibility?
I never said it wasn't. You made those stupid and ridiculous statements
earlier, not me.
> Oh and before I forget, yes, you can go down to the local shop and buy
> one of these computers, only it won't have many nodes, that's all.
Must be one hell of a shop!
--
---
Pete Goodwin
All your no fly zone are belong to us
My opinions are my own
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Rather humorous posting on news.com commentry forum:
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 14:06:20 +0100
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] says...
> What is keeping Linux off the desktop is ignorance and arrogance rolled up
> into a little ball called, "Linux is too hard!" + "Why should I learn how
> to use it?". You hear users bitch and moan, but when a replacement comes
> along, they make excuses, even though all they do it write a letter to Aunt
> Dolly and email some crap to work. Something Linux is more than capable of
> doing.
Which is precisely what is _not_ keeping Linux off the desktop. The
reason why Windows is winning is because of the willingness to try to
make it easier (unlike Linux) and the fact that there are far more
_usable_ (though not free) apps for Windows than there are for Linux.
--
---
Pete Goodwin
All your no fly zone are belong to us
My opinions are my own
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux beats Win2K (again)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 14:00:23 +0100
In article <9e1dea$gip$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] says...
> Almost forgot:
>
> Chad, Jan, Ubertroll, Todd, etc, what do you have to say to this:
>
> In the real world (ie not benchmarks) Linux is near the top in terms of
> price/performance and scalibility. Win2K doesn't put in a single showing.
And in the *real* world of desktops, where is Linux, pray tell?
Absolutely... nowhere?
--
---
Pete Goodwin
All your no fly zone are belong to us
My opinions are my own
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Rather humorous posting on news.com commentry forum:
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 14:09:37 +0100
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
says...
> I love talking to relatives and/or friends about computers, and after hearing
> their complaints, telling them how long my PC stays up running Linux. Usually
> jaws hit the floor. Due to the incredible crap that MS has loosed on the
> market, people have come to take crashes and/or reboots as normal computer
> operation when they aren't!
How long a computer stays up is not enough. Does it have all the apps,
the drivers, the support etc.? Linux doesn't have that yet.
> Then when I mention our Suns at work and how robust they are... :)
And how many Suns are going to be bought by the average consumer?
--
---
Pete Goodwin
All your no fly zone are belong to us
My opinions are my own
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Mandrake 8 sets the standard - for Desktop users anyway.
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 14:11:06 +0100
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] says...
> Its nice to see yet another truthful account of what REALLY happens when
> installing Linux.
It must be the exception rather than the rule.
--
---
Pete Goodwin
All your no fly zone are belong to us
My opinions are my own
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Mandrake 8 sets the standard - for Desktop users anyway.
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 14:23:12 +0100
I installed Mandrake 8.0 on my old PC166 - it went ok. I see the
installer has improved. I'm still mystified by the 'select % of packages
you want installed' - how can you install 45% of gcc, I wonder? 8)
I've not tried it on my dual network AMD Duron 850MHz, the one with SuSE
7.1 and the manually started DHCP. Why should I go through yet-another-
install for a package that didn't work too well with 7.1 and 7.2?
It installed yet-another-flavour-of-LILO that proceeds to die unless I
hit return to make it boot. For some reason the default timeout is
broken.
I have tried a Linux upgrade in the past. Boy that was _badly_ _broken_.
I've seen recommendations elsewhere to _not_ do this.
--
---
Pete Goodwin
All your no fly zone are belong to us
My opinions are my own
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To:
alt.solaris.x86,comp.unix.solaris,staroffice.com.support.install.solaris,comp.unix.advocacy,alt.os.unix,alt.unix
Subject: Re: Solaris 8 vs 7/2.x....
Date: 18 May 2001 13:41:57 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
According to Matt McLeod <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
:We've got major products which *require* version 4.2 of the Sun C++
:compiler to build. No other version will do it, not even 6.0 in
:"4.2-compatibility" mode.
Shoot - we have code that either crashes the newer Sun compilers or results
in erroneous code generated by the newer compilers. So far, the bug
reports remain open, for more than 3 yrs now I believe.
Our developers are fed up and are investigating alternatives now.
--
--
"See, he's not just anyone ... he's my son." Mark Schultz
<URL: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <URL: http://www.purl.org/NET/lvirden/>
Even if explicitly stated to the contrary, nothing in this posting
------------------------------
From: "Edward Rosten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux posts #1 TPC-H result (W2K still better)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 15:47:41 +0100
In article <9e2ni2$137$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Ayende Rahien"
<Don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Edward Rosten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:9e1mjh$lor$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> > Windows comes with WSH, which come with VBS & JS support. You can add
>> > Perl & Python from activestate.com (free). C#, VB.NET comes with .NET
>> > beta, and there are also other languages that you can hook there, I
>> > believe.
>>
>> Sounds better than it was, though with UNIX, you can use an arbitrary
>> executable as the interpreter.
>
> You can do the same in Windows, what is your point?
Can you or can't you? You said "you believe" there are other languages
you can hook in. Either you can use an arbitrary executable[*] or not.
Not in UNIX, an executable may be an interpreted program in this
instance.
-Ed
--
(You can't go wrong with psycho-rats.) (u98ejr)(@)(ecs.ox)(.ac.uk)
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------------------------------
From: "Edward Rosten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Campaign: Microsoft Free by October 1st
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 15:51:47 +0100
> Edward> Should work OK. OpenOffice should be rather better, and
> Edward> there are other office suites that I expect are Edward>
> smaller. BTW, if you want top notch quality wiht minimum Edward>
> requirements, you should try to learn LaTeX if you write a Edward>
> lot. The output quality is second to none and it will Edward>
> happily run on a 386.
>
> Even on a 386 with just 8MB or RAM.
Less. Linux will quite hapily run apps with 4MB RAM.
> >> And I think the main problem with my burner is it's parralel
> >> port. I can only get 1x for burning audio CD's. Is your's
> >> parralel, scsi, internal? And do you get 8x on audio CDs or just
> >> data CD's?
>
> Edward> The parallel nature of yours might pose a problem, but I
> Edward> think Linux can deal with it OK.
>
> I agree. Given that a parallel port has an even lower bandwidth than
> IDE
> and that Linux could handle the speed of IDE, how come Linux
> wouldn't cope with its speed? (Unless the Linux driver for the
> parallel port CDRW sucks.)
I think the problem is with the parallel port itself, to be honest.
-Ed
--
(You can't go wrong with psycho-rats.) (u98ejr)(@)(ecs.ox)(.ac.uk)
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------------------------------
From: Martin Kudlich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Rather humorous posting on news.com commentry forum:
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 15:51:56 +0200
In a way you're right. Most users I know *are* morons. I've had people ask
how to insert a picture in a Word Document. Goodness me!!
On the other hand: you may know a lot about computers, linux et. al. But do
you know as much about cars or appliances. When it comes to cars I'm
admittedly a complete moron. I've got to rely on the experts -
unfortunately. I'm just lucky that they allow me to drive ... ;-)
Martin Kudlich
PS: I'm sorry, I'm sitting at my company computer using NT.
Matthew Gardiner schrieb:
> Name:
> mike
> Email:
> Location:
> UK
> Occupation:
> Notes developer
>
> The real problem here is that most users are complete morons. They never
> understood DOS, Windows or Linux. Sure they seemed to achieve something
> with Windows but when it went wrong, they didn't have a clue and, as
> someone who worked on a help desk for some years, I got sick and tired
> of dealing with these cretins who shouldn't have been allowed anywhere
> near a PC.
> Like women drivers who don't know how to change a wheel, the technology
> is beyond them and they should leave it to the big boys who really
> understand it. Sorry guys - you are too stupid to have a computer.
>
> -----
>
> Doesn't the above just summarise the problem with the populous.
>
> Matthew Gardiner
------------------------------
From: "Edward Rosten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: soc.men,soc.singles,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: Why Linux Is no threat to Windows domination of the desktop
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 15:59:45 +0100
> I promised myself that I would plonk this thread, but KNode doesn't do
> it for me and I happened to read it today. Ah well.
Same here, but PAN doesn;t seem to do it very well. I plonked Aaron,
because he's a real idiot.
-Ed
--
(You can't go wrong with psycho-rats.) (u98ejr)(@)(ecs.ox)(.ac.uk)
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------------------------------
From: "Edward Rosten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: soc.men,soc.singles,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: Why Linux Is no threat to Windows domination of the desktop
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 16:01:03 +0100
>> Edward Rosten wrote:
>> > Do you think ceberal paulsy a choice? Hint: it isn't genetic.
>
> "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> So, you admit that it's a result of a defect of some sort.
>
> For some animals, sex is determined environmentally. If you are a
> crocodile, being male is neither genetic nor a choice - do you therefore
> believe that it is a defect?
Thanks. I prefer this one. I didn't much like my example but it was the
only one I could think of.
-Ed
--
(You can't go wrong with psycho-rats.) (u98ejr)(@)(ecs.ox)(.ac.uk)
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------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dan Pidcock)
Subject: Re: Win 9x is horrid
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 14:06:33 GMT
On Fri, 18 May 2001 07:51:29 +0100, Peter Hayes
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Thu, 17 May 2001 20:30:54 -0600, Dave Martel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>wrote:
>
>> I think the goal here is not data collection, but the ability to tie a
>> real identity to your machine.
>
>That's a pretty good reason to avoid XP like the plague. Unfortunately, in
>a few years time 90% of consumer machines will be running XP, there being
>no other choice within the Microsoft world, and your digital identity will
>be as clear as DNA.
>
>Another motive is to stop piracy, so I'm told. Of course, within days of
>the launch of XP, cracked copies, or corporate copies that don't require
>authentication, will appear, if they're not already available. This gives
>the lie to the anti-piracy motive,
I have to disagree with you there. This will stop the casual pirate,
e.g. the person who has Win/Office at work and 'borrows' it to take it
home for their own use. They won't want to go hunting out warez sites
for a >100MB download.
OTOH this could be a bad move by MS. How many people are going to
shell out for Office XP ($400? it's £400 here) for their home machine?
Office 6, 97 & 2000 have all been very popular and created industry
standard file formats - helped I'm sure by a lot of illegal copies so
that everyone must get the latest version so they can swap files with
people.
>and reinforces my opinion that Microsoft
>are looking for complete control over the desktop, a continuing monthly
>subscription based revenue stream, and control over your data (remember the
>fiasco recently over data sent via Passport servers, I reckon the mask
>slipped for a moment).
Data is maybe the most valuable asset for many businesses. I read an
article recently (QBS software news vol 11 issue 1) warning about
ASP's and the fact that they would control all of your data. If MS
gets into that in a big way it will be scary.
Dan
remove .hatespam to reply
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dan Pidcock)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Analysis of the Linux Report from MS
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 14:06:34 GMT
On Fri, 18 May 2001 10:40:25 GMT, "billwg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>"Ayende Rahien" <Don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:9e2o02$1gf$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>>
>> They don't, of course.
>> You get additional APIs or changes that doesn't break applications (like
>the
>> new UI in Whistler).
>>
>I can understand that you can load libraries for the application and
>everything continues to work OK for existing applications. My question was
>in regard to a developer's problem in making a new applications. Does the
>application have to change to be optimized for each different GUI? Do linux
>users favor one GUI over another as a "standard" or do they just take what
>comes with the particular application? To me the GUI flavors the entire
>appearance of the platform. If users choose GUIs like PC users choose
>Windows vs OS/2, then the application has to accomodate that choice, I
>think. If the users don't actually care, then you just write an app for
>whatever GUI is most suited for the app.
I think you may be confusing the GUI, toolkit and window manager (wm)
a bit here? (I hope I am using toolkit for the correct sense).
The user can choose whatever wm they want and still run all
applications as long as they have the required libraries installed.
Therefore I can run KDE as my wm, which appears as the GUI but if I
want to run an application made for gnome, e.g. gnorpm I can run it
fine as I have the gnome libraries installed. However as you say the
GUI for that application will look different to the GUI for the whole
window manager in terms of menu appearance, button style and the like.
The window frame is the responsibility of the window manager though so
this will be consistent. Some wm's (e.g. kde, gnome) have more
functionality in them like a task bar and application launcher. This
functionality is provided by an application (kpanel in kde) that
adheres to the look & feel of the window manager. There is nothing to
stop you running these apps in another wm, for example I ran kfm - the
kde file manager that provides windows explorer like functionality and
desktop icons - inside the icewm window manager, which provides its
own task bar. All this will lead to a pretty inconsistent UI though.
>From the developers PoV they will see just the toolkit they choose to
use: kde, gnome, motif, xt, xlib (for the masochists ;-). They don't
have to worry about which window manager the user has, but if they
want to look consistent they could use the one that their target
audience is most likely to have. This leads to wuite a lot of wasted
effort: there are a lot of common applications in kde and gnome, that
only really differ in the toolkit that has been used to program them.
Text editors & file managers and the like.
Dan
remove .hatespam to reply
------------------------------
From: "Edward Rosten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux posts #1 TPC-H result (W2K still better)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 16:08:37 +0100
> I looked into this once, and decided that MS could blow goats before I'd
> devote serious spare-time to figuring out what was going on.
Did you figure it out <g>
-Ed
--
(You can't go wrong with psycho-rats.) (u98ejr)(@)(ecs.ox)(.ac.uk)
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------------------------------
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