On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 20:15, Marek Peteraj wrote: > On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 00:29, Jan Depner wrote: > > On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 16:37, Dave Robillard wrote: > > > On Tue, 2004-30-11 at 17:43 -0500, Lee Revell wrote: > > > > No one said they were good. I just said it was better than no support > > > > at all, and whatever RME decides to do, they designed the hardware, it's > > > > THEIR CHOICE. > > > > > > No, it's not better than no support at all. No support doesn't destroy > > > Linux in the long run. Try to think on a little wider scale than > > > getting one silly little sound card to work in your specific (x86, > > > running a "supported" version of the Linux kernel) computer. There are > > > more important things than trivial convenience for a small subset of > > > Linux users (at the expense of all the other ones) you know. > > > > > > > My problem is a whole lot more important than 1 silly little sound > > card. As I said before, somewhere around 200 Linux systems with NVIDIA > > cards and the proprietary driver. The "more important" things you speak > > of are important to you but not to me. I don't belong to your church. > > Jan no offense. But i don't care about your 200 linux systems. > Simply because if nvidia didn't care at all just like RME does with it's > fireface, you would use windows on your 200 machines. But OTOH, if you > had windows on those 200 machines before, had nvidia cards installed in > those boxes, and in order to reduce TCO you went with linux instead of > buying new licenses for a new version of windows, and were forced to use > nvidia binaries because those machines had nvidia cards installed > already, then that's kindof fine. Kindof because there still would need > to be a very _pragmatic_ reason to ditch old versions of windows. But i > certainly wouldn't advise people to go buy nvidia because of their > "exceptional" binary drivers. Too careless. > I certainly agree. We're using windows because I write about 60% of the sonar/navigation processing software we use and I refuse to have Windoze in my office.
> The problem is that there are not that many users still. And IIUC you're > still somehow forced to do this and that with your kernel in order to > get it to run, and it's still not runnnig 100% with every application(2 > or 3 people reporting problems here during this long discussion). > If they discontinue your nvidia card then you're either stuck or need to > buy another card, having no guarantee that the new one will work > flawlessly(and it's probably harder to give feedback such as bugreports > on binary drivers - if not anything else, i can imagine communicating > with nvidia - and no chance for an attempt to fix it). > I would like nothing better than to switch to an open source driver for exactly the reason you set forth. > I think it's fine to use binary drivers if you have no choice as in - i > had windows, switched to linux and heck no oss drivers!. But in that > case, if you're an open source believer, you still should promote open > source drivers. No matter how well the binary drivers are written. > I am definitely an open source believer and I promote open source software and drivers. I just can't tell my office that they can't run the particular piece of 3D software that we need at a reasonable speed. The software will still run on open source drivers (even the nv driver) but it's OpenGL and it's slower than molasses in January. > > > > > > > You can't expect people to respect your choice to GPL the > > > > code you write then bitch and moan when they decide to sell their > > > > hardware under terms that make sense to them. If you don't like it then > > > > pardon my French but you can design your own fucking sound card. > > > > > > > > Lee > > > > > > If you don't like your software being free and open, then pardon my > > > French but you can go design your own fucking operating system. If not, > > > you could at least have some respect for the ideals that are the reason > > > for the creation of this one. > > > > > > > Children, children, try to be civil. You miss the point Dave. I > > don't have to design my own OS. Someone else did it for me and put it > > under the GPL so I can use it. Unfortunately RME didn't do that and I > > can't force them to. The software I write is also under the GPL so > > someone else can use it anytime they want. That, though, is my (and > > Steve's and Jack's and Ron's and Patricks') choice. Nobody twisted our > > arms. *If* I was in the market for an RME Fireface I would hope that > > RME would put out *any* kind of Linux driver for it. Eventually, if > > someone were sharp enough, they'd reverse engineer it and then I could > > switch to the open source driver. I seriously doubt that anyone is > > going to get the generic NVIDIA driver to run as fast as the one that > > NVIDIA puts out and, until they do, I'm stuck with a closed source > > driver. I'm not going to cry about it though. > > The point is not that someone might reverse engineer and do a > worse/better oss driver. The point is that nvidia, ati, xgi, matrox > *should* do open source drivers. > I agree but I can't make them even though we're a fairly large outfit. Jan