Linux-Development-Sys Digest #357, Volume #6 Sun, 31 Jan 99 21:14:12 EST
Contents:
Re: disheartened gnome developer (jerryn)
Re: ide-scsi set up with 2.2.0 (Matt Foster)
Re: Why I'm dumping Linux, going back to Windblows (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: How do I get Samba working (Ross Crawford)
ADV: MS Office 97 Pro CD-ROM 29.95 ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Can't umount /usr: device busy (Markus Schutz)
Re: disheartened gnome developer ("Bob Taylor")
Problem with 2.2.1 (ATAPI CDROM) (Aaron Hochwimmer)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jerryn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.x
Subject: Re: disheartened gnome developer
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:35:07 -0500
Jerry Normandin Replies:
WOW.. Actually I guess the originator in this doesn't truly
understand why the Open Software movement exists or the
true Philosophy behind Linux.
Linux has been a great contribution to Mankind in general.
Now the effects of all our hard work are starting to pay off.
Open Software and freeing source code isn't socialism.
We are starting a revolution in thinking, a paradigm shift.
The days of shrinkwrapped code with lack of source code are
numbered. Also per seat licensing is on the way out.
>From writing and contributing code to Linux or Open Software
in General we learn how to write better code and better
ourselves as engineers. I don't know about the rest of
you but my yearly Salary has increased due to the knowledge
I picked up using this great operating system!
I still believe companies like Redhat are causing division
in the Linux Community, namely because they are earning
profits from the blood and sweat of all of us developers.
I'd like to see a unified Linux Software group where
Redhat, LinuxPPC, and all the other sources come up with
ONE standardized distribution now, and form these companies
as non-profit orginizations. Redhat is helping forge ahead,
however the division they are causing is a problem.
Marcin Krol wrote:
>
> On 23 Jan 1999 07:46:45 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Richard Kulisz)
> wrote:
>
> >In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> >Michael Powe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Christopher> I would instead regard "free" as indicating that,
> >> Christopher> generally speaking, decision makers in the market are
> >> Christopher> "not coerced," and more particularly, have a maximum
> >> Christopher> of "degrees of freedom" (in the mathematical sense).
> >>
> >>Since coercion exists in all markets, by your definition, then, there
> >>is no such thing as a free market.
> >
> >As long as poverty exists, coercion is inevitable.
> >
> >>Since coercion exists, the only real question is from what direction
> >>and how it is used. History amply demonstrates that, when left
> >>unchecked, corporations use coercion to enforce monopolistic and
> >>socially destructive practices. 75% of American economic law favors
> >>business. It's worse than pathetic how people are always blaming "the
> >>gummint" for "getting in the way" of business; when in fact, "gummint"
> >>is always stumbling over its own feet in its hurry to get out of the
> >>way.
> >>
> >>Because markets are irrational and driven by greed, it's necessary and
> >>proper for governments to apply coercion in the market to palliate the
> >>destructive practices which are the norm for corporate behavior.
>
> >The destruction is inherent to the market.
>
> Really? When customer and farmer argue about price and
> finally settle it down, where is destruction in that?
>
> >Greed is nothing more than
> >sucking as much as possible from the economy,
>
> Greed is human characteristics, not political characteristics, stupid.
>
> >thereby weakening it.
> >Competition is nothing more than destroying the economy. To use greed
> >or competition as an organizing principle in the economy is as insane
> >as using "violence is good" would be as an organizing principle in the
> >justice system. Capitalism is fundamentally irrational and insane. And
> >if government is to prevent destruction then it must necessarily
> >suppress capitalism.
>
> >Even the corporations, billionaires, and politicians all understand that
> >capitalism is destructive; they ceased to believe in it after the Great
> >Depression.
>
> Actually, Great Depression was caused by government, or Federal
> Reserve ineptly replacing clearing system worked out by banks,
> which successfully defended against runs on banks on the beginning
> of 20th century for example.
>
> >Nowadays, any mention of "capitalism" is mere rhetoric aimed
> >at getting dumb assholes to shut up and accept the status quo.
>
> >Socialism (credit unions + cooperatives) is not organized on competition
> >but on cooperation;
>
> Bullshit. Competition is characteristics of humans. Question is,
> whether political system manages to channel it into productive
> activities (like capitalism) or it tries to sweep it under the rug
> (like communism) which makes whole country go haywire.
>
> >and it works at least an order of magnitude more
> >efficiently than capitalism.
>
> Now you are selling pure bullshit. What evidence
> of this supposed "efficiency" you have?
>
> >There are laws in the USA to prevent coops
> >from forming (eg, there's a law that prevents an owner from selling out
> >to his workers; he must give preference to other businessmen) and banks
> >refuse to lend to cooperatives because their board members are all board
> >members of competing corporations. Despite this, coops have a FAR lower
> >failure rate than other corporations. The body of evidence for socialism
> >is staggering.
>
> Actually, the body of evidence against socialism is staggering. There
> were lots of various flavors of socialism, all of them failed.
>
> MK
>
> ---------------------------------------------------
> "Reality is something that does not disappear after
> you cease believing in it" - VALIS, Philip K. Dick
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
> Delete _removethis_ from address to email me
------------------------------
From: Matt Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: ide-scsi set up with 2.2.0
Date: 31 Jan 1999 22:40:11 GMT
David Bukowski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: Excuse me if this is no longer necessary but whatever happened to the
: hdx=ide-scsi option in 2.2.0? I used to need it before cause I have 2
: cd drives. One reader and one RW so I had the RW set as a scsi but the
[SNIP]
Same setup, 2.2.1 (and through most of 2.2.0-pre) and in lilo.conf
append "hdd=ide-scsi hdc=ide=cd" works fine, the R (hdc) uses ATAPI
and the RW (hdd) pretends to be /dev/scd0.
Matt
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Why I'm dumping Linux, going back to Windblows
Date: 31 Jan 1999 13:47:19 -0600
In article <7913p8$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>The man pages should not be
>>cluttered with the kind of thing that you only want to see
>>once. They should be the place you look when you know what
>>you want to do but you need to fine tune the options. If
>>you turn the man pages into fluff for people that haven't
>>learned the language, then you'll also have to re-write the
>>real reference again for the people that need it.
>>
>
>If you call examples that help people understand how to use
>something "clutter" and "fluff", then it is beyond hope to
>continue to argue with you.
The examples you suggest for someone who doesn't know how
to read a man page are completely obvious to someone who
does and who has used the command before. They just get
in the way when you are trying to find something new.
Do you ever read the warning labels on consumer electronic
devices these days? When they first started adding them
they were short and contained some sensible advice. Perhaps
they still have something of value, but since they now have
pages of blatently obvious examples to the effect of 'do
not use this thing while standing on your head in the bathtub
during a thunderstorm', no one ever reads far enough to see
the important part.
>But your point now seems that examples are good, but don't belong
>to a man page?
>
>well, at least this is a progress.
>
>I say examples do belong in man pages, since man pages are
>the first thing one looks at to find how to use a command.
And I say if you are going to look in the man pages you should
first learn how to read a man page. It isn't difficult and is
worth the small amount of effort. It is also worth the effort
to learn the shell syntax if you intend to type commands into
the shell. I am not recommending avoiding unix if you don't
want to learn this, I am saying that it will be worth the
effort in the long run and there are 'fill in the form' interfaces
for most things these days if you don't want to bother.
>putting examples in a book, or some other document somehwere
>on the net will not help someone at 3 a.m. trying to figure some
>complex command. Sure, have a separate document or book if
>you want, but this does not mean not to have the examples in
>the man page as well.
We are talking about Linux here aren't we? The system where
on a normal installation:
du -s /usr/doc
299714 /usr/doc
there is clearly no lack of tutorial material unless you chose
not to install it. How about if we add a warning label to
every man page: "WARNING, if you don't know how to read this,
see the corresponding HOWTO file"?
>Do what is practical and convienent for the users, and use
>common sense.
We are agreed here, but you are only a new user once and you
may be reading the man pages for another 20 years or more
(I'm pretty close ...). You look there for the changes in
this particular version's options compared to last year's or
some other flavor of unix. You can do that if the man entry
is a few pages at most and lists the options and their meanings
in an uncluttered layout. You can't do it if there are pages
of tutorial info and examples that get in the way. If the
example actually reduces the text necessary to explain the
command, then yes it belongs there. If it is really a literal
copy of very common usage that you can cut-and-paste to the
command line, that also has some value. If it is just a sugar
coated version of the already shown option choices, then it
belongs elsewhere.
>>Do people typically combine many tools in VMS with pipelines and
>>command grouping as they do in unix?
>
>Sure. In VMS you can do
>
>$pipe show file/device | search sys$input my_file_name
What if you want wildcard filenames to be expanded only
by one of the commands and one command to have a different
working directory? I'm not being obscure here - I consider
that sort of thing to be typical use and one of the big reasons
for using unix in the first place.
>why does combining commands prevent one from showing examples
>of how each command byitself can be used?
In unix at least, the 'combining' is done by the shell with
its own particular syntax so the command line you actually
need to type has much more to do with the shell metacharacter
processing than the commands' own syntax where you generally
just need to know the meaning of the options.
>>I don't disagree here - I just don't want to see them more than
>>once, and I don't think everyone else would either.
>>
>
>I dont understand this about "not wanting to see them more
>than once" ??
OK, I'll give an example since the concise description seems
not to be working. I regularly work with about 6 different
versions of unix, all with subtle differences in the way
various commands work. I might be writing a shell script
and need to know if this particular version wants ef or ax
as options to 'ps' and whether it wants the leading '-' or
not. It is much harder to find the details if you have
to visually wade though a lot of extra things that are obvious
after the first time you have seen them.
The other trouble with examples is that you can never think of a
good one when you need it... I wanted something where the mistake
would be destructive.
>You do see the options more than once when you type man command,
>dont you?
Yes, that is precisely why I type 'man command'. If you make
'man command' do things besides show options concisely, then
we will need some other command that does just show options
concisely.
>Think of examples as extension of the option list, or if you
>dont want to see them at all, close your eyes when the page scrolls
>down to the examples sections at the end of the page.
Think of traing wheels on a bicycle. Think of telling the people
who know how to ride how much better is is to have welded the
training wheels on so new riders will be more comfortable.
Perhaps someone will completely rewrite the man system as hypertext
so you can easily jump to the tutorial without making the details
cluttered, but I'm not holding my breath.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: Ross Crawford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: How do I get Samba working
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 11:42:48 +1100
James Youngman wrote:
> Josh Klein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > I'm on a network where most of the computers are running some sort of
> > Windows Networking/shared files. I know I can connect to them via Samba
> > can someone tell me how?
>
> Samba is an SMB *server.
> man smbmount
>
> --
> ACTUALLY reachable as @free-lunch.demon.(whitehouse)co.uk:james+usenet
Samba actually contains a client, too - smbclient. Though it doesn't allow
mounting of SMB filesystems like smbmount. There is also a shell called
smbwrapper, which allows access to SMB servers.
The advantage over smbmount is that smbclient & smbwrapper are portable,
though as you're asking in COLDS, I assume you're using Linux anyway....
Regards,
ROSCO
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: ADV: MS Office 97 Pro CD-ROM 29.95
Date: 1 Feb 1999 00:17:08 GMT
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 02:34:19 +0100
From: Markus Schutz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Can't umount /usr: device busy
Hi folks,
I've upgraded my Linux box to:
Linux-2.2.0
glibc-2.0.7pre6
I wanted to try something new: drop all libs in /usr/lib. Yes, even
libc.so and ld-linux.so
The system start works good. I can run the box. But when I try to
shutdown I get the "Can't umount /usr, device is busy". I've tried to
check if there are unkilled processes with a 'ps' in the shutdown
script, but there seem nothing left from /usr running. The only thing I
suspect still running is ld-linux.so, or some library part that is still
maped.
Does anyone know a solution to that. It's a bit annoying to have a
systematic fschk on /usr on system startup. Perhaps there is something
more to do than 'killall5 -15; killall5 -9' in the shutdown script, but
I can't figure out what is missing. There is the call to 'sync' before
the 'killall5'.
Thanks,
Markus
--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
=================================================================
Markus SCHÜTZ
8, Ch. des Aubépines Phone: ++41 21 646 9362
CH-1004 Lausanne NEW --> mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Switzerland mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Foothills/9297
=================================================================
------------------------------
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ("Bob Taylor")
Subject: Re: disheartened gnome developer
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.x
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 02:03:08 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
jerryn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Jerry Normandin Replies:
[snip]
> I still believe companies like Redhat are causing division
> in the Linux Community, namely because they are earning
> profits from the blood and sweat of all of us developers.
> I'd like to see a unified Linux Software group where
> Redhat, LinuxPPC, and all the other sources come up with
> ONE standardized distribution now, and form these companies
> as non-profit orginizations. Redhat is helping forge ahead,
> however the division they are causing is a problem.
I have seen *no* evidence that Red Hat, S.U.S.E., Caldera etc are causing
*any* division within the Linux community. The "division" is strictly in
your head and if you continue *you* will become a cause of division. No
one is keeping *you* from creating your own distribution and selling it.
Therefore your complaint against companies like Red Hat earning a profit
is just jealousy speaking.
Now, having said all that, I *do* agree that Linux needs a standard
distribution.
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
| Bob Taylor Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |
|---------------------------------------------------------------|
| Like the ad says, at 300 dpi you can tell she's wearing a |
| swimsuit. At 600 dpi you can tell it's wet. At 1200 dpi you |
| can tell it's painted on. I suppose at 2400 dpi you can tell |
| if the paint is giving her a rash. (So says Joshua R. Poulson)|
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
------------------------------
From: Aaron Hochwimmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Problem with 2.2.1 (ATAPI CDROM)
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 14:59:58 +0000
Hi,
I'm having a problem with Linux 2.2.1 running on a Pentium II 266. I
have RedHat 5.2 with the upgrades suggested in the 2.2 "Changes" file.
Previously to upgrading I was running 2.0.36 and my cdrom was picked up
at boot time just fine. Now with 2.2.1 it is not coming up. I tried
adding
append "hdc=cdrom"
to my lilo.conf and get this with dmesg:
Linux version 2.2.1 ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) (gcc version 2.7.2.3) #6
Mon Feb 1 11:49:17 UCT 1999
Detected 266447292 Hz processor.
ide_setup: hdc=cdrom
Console: colour VGA+ 80x25
Calibrating delay loop... 265.42 BogoMIPS
Memory: 127996k/131072k available (1100k kernel code, 408k reserved,
1532k data, 36k init)
CPU: Intel Pentium II (Klamath) stepping 03
Checking 386/387 coupling... OK, FPU using exception 16 error reporting.
Checking 'hlt' instruction... OK.
POSIX conformance testing by UNIFIX
mtrr: v1.26 (19981001) Richard Gooch ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
PCI: PCI BIOS revision 2.10 entry at 0xfdb91
PCI: Using configuration type 1
PCI: Probing PCI hardware
PCI: Enabling I/O for device 00:3a
Linux NET4.0 for Linux 2.2
Based upon Swansea University Computer Society NET3.039
NET4: Unix domain sockets 1.0 for Linux NET4.0.
NET4: Linux TCP/IP 1.0 for NET4.0
IP Protocols: ICMP, UDP, TCP
Starting kswapd v 1.5
parport0: PC-style at 0x378 [SPP,ECP,ECPPS2]
Detected PS/2 Mouse Port.
Serial driver version 4.27 with no serial options enabled
ttyS00 at 0x03f8 (irq = 4) is a 16550A
ttyS01 at 0x02f8 (irq = 3) is a 16550A
pty: 256 Unix98 ptys configured
Sound initialization started
<Sound Blaster 16 (4.16)> at 0x220 irq 5 dma 1,5
<Sound Blaster 16> at 0x330 irq 5 dma 0
Sound initialization complete
PIIX4: IDE controller on PCI bus 00 dev 39
PIIX4: not 100% native mode: will probe irqs later
ide0: BM-DMA at 0xffa0-0xffa7, BIOS settings: hda:DMA, hdb:DMA
ide1: BM-DMA at 0xffa8-0xffaf, BIOS settings: hdc:DMA, hdd:DMA
hda: QUANTUM FIREBALL SE4.3A, ATA DISK drive
hdc: IRQ probe failed (0)
hdc: IRQ probe failed (0)
hdc: ATAPI cdrom (?)
ide0 at 0x1f0-0x1f7,0x3f6 on irq 14
ide1 at 0x170-0x177,0x376 on irq 15
hda: QUANTUM FIREBALL SE4.3A, 4110MB w/80kB Cache, CHS=524/255/63, UDMA
hdc: status error: status=0x7f { DriveReady DeviceFault SeekComplete
DataRequest CorrectedError Index Error }
hdc: status error: error=0x7f
hdc: drive not ready for command
hdc: ATAPI reset complete
hdc: status error: status=0x7f { DriveReady DeviceFault SeekComplete
DataRequest CorrectedError Index Error }
hdc: status error: error=0x7f
hdc: drive not ready for command
hdc: ATAPI reset complete
hdc: status error: status=0x7f { DriveReady DeviceFault SeekComplete
DataRequest CorrectedError Index Error }
hdc: status error: error=0x7f
end_request: I/O error, dev 16:00 (hdc), sector 0
hdc: drive not ready for command
hdc: ATAPI 47X CD-ROM drive, 2948kB Cache
Uniform CDROM driver Revision: 2.52
Floppy drive(s): fd0 is 1.44M
FDC 0 is a National Semiconductor PC87306
3c59x.c:v0.99H 11/17/98 Donald Becker
http://cesdis.gsfc.nasa.gov/linux/drivers/vortex.html
eth0: 3Com 3c905 Boomerang 100baseTx at 0xef00, 00:10:4b:36:26:d6, IRQ
9
8K word-wide RAM 3:5 Rx:Tx split, autoselect/MII interface.
MII transceiver found at address 24, status 786f.
Enabling bus-master transmits and whole-frame receives.
Partition check:
hda: hda1 hda2 hda3 hda4 < hda5 hda6 hda7 hda8 >
NTFS version 990102
VFS: Mounted root (ext2 filesystem) readonly.
Freeing unused kernel memory: 36k freed
Adding Swap: 128484k swap-space (priority -1)
Adding Swap: 128484k swap-space (priority -2)
Does anyone have any ideas about this? It is entirely likely that I have
made a dumbass mistake somewhere along the way.
I have double checked that I have compiled ATAPI cdrom support into the
kernel.
I am also having trouble outputing to /dev/dsp - I am not sure if that
is related to cdrom problem above.
Everything else seems to be running just fine - e.g. networking etc.
Thanks in advance for any tips anyone can give me...
Aaron
--
"Exclusive dedication to necessitous chores without interlude
of hedonistic diversion renders Jack a hebetudinous fellow" - adage
--
Aaron Hochwimmer
Geothermal Group, Dept. of Engineering Science, University of Auckland
Private Bag 92019, Auckland, NZ FAX: +64-9-373-7468
E-MAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TEL: +64-9-373-7599 xtn 7490
WWW: http://www.esc.auckland.ac.nz/People/Students/Hochwimmer
--
PB Power (NZ) Ltd - GENZL Division
E-MAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW: http://www.pbpower.co.nz/
------------------------------
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