* David Lang <da...@lang.hm> wrote:
> On Wed, 7 May 2014, Ingo Molnar wrote:
>
> >* Josh Poimboeuf <jpoim...@redhat.com> wrote:
> >
> >>On Wed, May 07, 2014 at 02:24:44PM +0200, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> >>>
> >>>* Josh Poimboeuf <jpoim...@redhat.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>Ah this reminds me when we chased kprobes dangerous spots and we
> >>>>>tried to declare __kprobes the functions which were too dangerous
> >>>>>to hot patch.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>We eventually gave up because it was impossible to fix everything.
> >>>>>And that was only for kprobes!
> >>>>>
> >>>>>So you can never tell if a given patch will impact a given
> >>>>>kthread.
> >>>>
> >>>>If the user (or the person creating the patch for them) doesn't
> >>>>understand all impacts of the patch, they have no business patching
> >>>>their kernel with it.
> >>>
> >>>I think what is being somewhat lost is this discussion is the
> >>>distinction between:
> >>>
> >>> 1) is the patch safe
> >>> 2) is the _live patching_ safe
> >>>
> >>>It's really two different things. We should absolutely strive for live
> >>>patching to be safe under all circumstances, as long as the patch
> >>>being fed to it is safe in itself when building a new kernel the old
> >>>fashioned way.
> >>>
> >>>I.e. it's natural that a kernel can be messed up via a patch, but this
> >>>subsystem should absolutely make sure that it will safely reject
> >>>totally fine patches that are unsafe to live patch.
> >>
> >>Thanks, that's a very succinct way to put it. They are indeed two
> >>different things, but at the same time they're interrelated: determining
> >>whether a patch is safe requires making assumptions about how it will be
> >>applied.
> >
> >No!
> >
> >A patch to the kernel source is 'safe' if it results in a correctly
> >patched kernel source. Full stop!
> >
> >Live patching does not enter into this question, ever. The correctness
> >of a patch to the source does not depend on 'live patching'
> >considerations in any way, shape or form.
> >
> >Any mechanism that tries to blur these lines is broken by design.
> >
> >My claim is that if a patch is correct/safe in the old fashioned way,
> >then a fundamental principle is that a live patching subsystem must
> >either safely apply, or safely reject the live patching attempt,
> >independently from any user input.
> >
> >It's similar to how kprobes (or ftrace) will safely reject or perform
> >a live patching of the kernel.
> >
> >So for example, there's this recent upstream kernel fix:
> >
> > 3ca9e5d36afb agp: info leak in agpioc_info_wrap()
> >
> >which fixes an information leak. The 'patch' is Git commit
> >3ca9e5d36afb (i.e. it patches a very specific incoming kernel source
> >tree that results in a specific outgoing source tree), and we know
> >it's safe and correct.
> >
> >Any live patching subsystem must make sure that if this patch is
> >live-patched, that this attempt is either rejected safely or performed
> >safely.
> >
> >"We think/hope it won't blow up in most cases and we automated some
> >checks halfways" or "the user must know what he is doing" is really
> >not something that I think is a good concept for something as fragile
> >as live patching.
>
> In that case you will have to reject any kernel patch that changes
> any memory structure, because it's impossible as a general rule to
> say that changing memory structures is going to be safe (or even
> possible) to change.
>
> that includes any access to memory that moves around a lock
Initially restricting it to such patches would be a good beginning -
most of the security fixes are just failed checks, i.e. they don't
typically even change any external (not on stack) memory structure,
right?
Thanks,
Ingo
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