Linux-Misc Digest #542, Volume #25 Thu, 24 Aug 00 01:13:04 EDT
Contents:
Re: Disk clone - almost (Juergen Pfann)
Re: FYI: Applix vs. StarOffice vs. WP8 for Linux.... (Christopher Browne)
Re: How to compile a Linux kernel (Cannon Fodder)
Re: Best newsreader? (jeff)
Linux, XML, and assalting Windows ("paul snow")
Re: File Sharing on Dual Boot (Dan)
Re: Couldn't open Netscape (Dan)
Re: how and where do I get linux? (Dan)
Re: uil + wml = headache (Dan)
Re: Is Mandrake Really Red Hat... (abraxas)
Re: small installation (David Dorward)
Re: Disk clone - almost (jeff)
Re: Use linux machine to handle automated backups from windows and mac systems on
network? (Vito Prosciutto)
Re: Best Linux Distribution (Tomalak)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Juergen Pfann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Disk clone - almost
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 06:06:02 +0200
jeff wrote:
>
> Well, I put 2 and 2 together, and finally got 4! I think that my problem
> was this... An "LI," according to the lilo doc, could indicate that
> /boot/boot.d has moved. Since this is almost certainly true in the case of
> my rsync'd cloned disk, it explains the message, and the inability to boot.
>
> How to fix this? One thought is that I could create a small /boot partition
> and use dd to copy it. The big advantage of using rsync over dd and cp, for
> copying the bulk of the system, is that rsync can copy only changes, so
> keeping the clone in sync can be accomplished with a quickie nightly cron
> job.
>
I'm sorry, Jeff - NO, you're still getting 5 by adding 2 and 2...
You still mix up the copying of files from one filesystem to another
( as is e.g. cp's, rsync's or tar's behaviour ), with dd's way of
operation - that is, transferring each and every bit from one place
to another without care of any overlaying structures like partitions,
filesystems and such !!!
Let me repeat that - "dd" is a typical UNIX tool - simple, but effective
and very mighty not DESPITE, but JUST BECAUSE of its simplicity !
dd basically does no more than to read a stream of bytes - the
input"file",
"if=..." - and to write that stream back to another location -
outputfile,
"of=...". What is the clue to the enormous flexibility, is any UNIX's
concept of "device files", saying (in short) that you can access devices
like floppy or hard disks, CD-ROMs, whatever, by using a special file
such as /dev/fd0, dev/hda, dev/hdb and so on.
So, one of the mistakes you wrote in one of your postings was the notion
that you only talk about the MBR when using /dev/hda - in fact, you talk
about the WHOLE DISK instead...
Thus, if you think again, the command 'dd if=/dev/hda of=/dev/hdb' does
the job you want - i.e. transferring EVERY sector from HD 1 to EVERY
sector on HD 2 !! BUT, maybe now you see this can only work if both
disks are IDENTICAL in size, i.e. share the same number of sectors -
they don't even need to be by the same manufacturer, or one can be IDE
and the other SCSI, as long as they don't differ even by one single
sector !
Along with that sector-by-sector transfer, you do transfer the MBR
including the partition table, starting and ending of each partition,
and every file on each partition's file system. So, according to the
subject, this would be a perfect clone : if the 2 disks are 2 items of
the same model, every operating system and every human could *only*
discern between both by the drive's serial number - which really is
irrelevant otherwise...
So, if you can't boot from the clone, you either didn't issue the
above command correctly (what to me seems hard to do...), or you
don't meet the OBLIGATORY condition for this - your disks aren't
identical in size !!!
Maybe now you also see that your 'rsync' magic previous to the
'dd' is totally useless - as you overwrite the copied files
afterwards again!
Think about that, please, Jeff, and read dd's manual page thoroughly,
for instance how to copy only one or some sectors/bytes, and please
do test some examples, for instance with floppies, like
"dd if=/dev/fd0 of=/tmp/floppy-image". You can then try to mount
the *disk file* /tmp/floppy-image as "loop device" and compare it's
contents including file system to the floppy disk itself; or, simply
clone your floppy by exchanging "if" and "of" in the above command -
then we're ready for the next lesson...
Juergen
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Christopher Browne)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: FYI: Applix vs. StarOffice vs. WP8 for Linux....
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 04:09:36 GMT
Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw a time when Carl Fink would say:
>On Thu, 24 Aug 2000 01:51:24 GMT Grant Edwards <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>My observations exactly. SO is way too big and slow compared to either WP
>>or Applix.
>
>It's significantly faster than WP on my box. Faster to load, faster
>to use. That and it works with icewm.
>
>>And the way it thinks it needs to take over and show that damned
>>desktop is really annoying.
>
>Supposedly the next version will decompose it back into applications.
I got a note last week from some of the developers (they're trying
to figure what Cool Stuff to do with the spreadsheet side of things,
and I've got some interesting "possible design notes") and heard
essentially the same.
The intent seems to be to decompose the system into "engines" for
the respective areas (WP, spreadsheet, DB, ...), and have those each
be "servers" that "client front ends" will interact with.
That being said, I remain a tad skeptical. I figure that this sort
of "decomposition" is likely to amount essentially to starting the
design process from scratch. In effect, this means that they throw
away StarOffice as it exists now, and design something Completely
New.
There might be _some_ usable code fragments in the existing code base,
but if the "decomposition" discussion is to be taken seriously, it amounts
essentially to the next "version" really being rebuilt from scratch,
and having minimal relationship with the existing code.
The net impact of this would amount to being rather like the Mozilla
project. The most recent "M17" version is getting somewhat usable,
but it has been two and a half years since the initial code release
was done.
A from-scratch redesign of SO _could_ go faster than that, but not by
2 years :-).
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] - <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/spreadsheets.html>
"Feel free to contact me (flames about my english and the useless of
this driver will be redirected to /dev/null, oh no, it's full...)"
-- Michael Beck, describing the PC-speaker sound device
------------------------------
From: Cannon Fodder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: How to compile a Linux kernel
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 04:14:26 GMT
Thank You!
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (jeff)
Subject: Re: Best newsreader?
Date: 24 Aug 2000 04:17:27 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Fri, 18 Aug 2000 23:05:00 -0500, Dan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Rob Blomquist wrote:
>>
>> I'm recently over from Windoze land, and I am wondering if there is a
>> newsreader that is as good as Microplanet's Gravity?
>>
>> I am currently posting and reading from Krn 0.6.0, and have an RPM for 0.6.11;
>> I also have a beta of knews, but am not excited about it, if it just another
>> basic newsreader.
>>
>> I know that Netscape Communicator can handle it, but its never been a faovrite
>> either. And pine and news are a bit lower than I want.
>>
>> I'm not really a snoot, but I just like a decent newsreader with a decent
>> threading ability.
>>
>> Rob
>
>
>Try out kexpress. It's pretty much beta quality, but it still pretty
>decent IMHO.
Also try slrn. It's not real pretty at first, if you're used to staring at
buttons and gizmos. But after using it for a day, you'll be speeding through
groups/threads/articles faster than you could with any GUI.
-jeff
------------------------------
From: "paul snow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux,comp.text.xml,comp.os.linux.setup,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Linux, XML, and assalting Windows
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 04:22:23 GMT
Here is a few observations:
Linux on the desktop (and as a server) requires it to beat Windows XXX hands
down for ease of configuration, security, and management.
Installing software is simply the act of constructing in storage a proper
representation of the software. In other words, our talking about
installing software on a computer is like a painter insisting she is
installing a picture of a duck onto her painting. It doesn't matter how she
does it, she is rendering the duck, not installing it.
We need to get rid of install programs, on all platforms. There isn't
another single thing we do on computers that causes more in dollars and time
(Solitaire *is* a close second, however ;-).
XML can be used to define a program in abstract. A single, separate
Software Rendering Facility can be used to take a program's abstract form in
XML and render it to the target computer system.
XML can be used to capture the options required for this rendering.
XML can be used to refer to a group of programs in abstract (XML), and their
options (XML), in order to define a single definition that can be expressed
in different ways on different computer systems to construct an operational,
distributed application. (Unlike today, where we have to install every web
server, every firewall, every Java JDK, every etc. all from scratch, with
one mistake preventing any of it from working!)
This discussion about how XML might be used along with Linux to create a new
concept in Operating Systems is beginning. We have the technology and the
know how. We just have to take our computer system, set it on its side and
view it a bit differently. This technology is going to completely change
the rules of software configuration, management, and security, and you can
make it happen.
http://www.egroups.com/group/xmlos/
http://www.egroups.com/subscribe/xmlos/
Paul Snow
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 05:57:33 -0500
From: Dan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: File Sharing on Dual Boot
Dances With Crows wrote:
>
[snip]
> If you have a LoseModem (often mistakenly called "WinModem"), rip it out
> of your computer, sell it to a stupid person, and go buy a Real Modem
> (defined as an external modem that connects to the machine using a DB9
> serial port. $50 US or so.) They're easy to set up in Linux, and
> provide better throughput+fewer disconnects no matter what OS you're
> using in my experience.
>
> --
> Matt G|There is no Darkness in Eternity/But only Light too dim for us to see
> Brainbench MVP for Linux Admin / Those who do not understand Unix are
> http://www.brainbench.com / condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
> -----------------------------/ --Henry Spencer
You can also get an ISA 56K modem, to work under Linux as long as it has
jumpers on it.
Dan
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 06:06:49 -0500
From: Dan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Couldn't open Netscape
"ywk@SuSE" wrote:
>
> sorry about that, I did try to use command line
> it came up to say
> "Bus error"
> same thing happen to other users too
> I recognize the problem that was just after Staroffice 5.1 version
> installed
> any clue?
>
> ywk
>
> Lew Pitcher wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 11:18:36 -0700, "ywk@SuSE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > >thanks for your info, actually I had done the remove the lock file
> > >manually but it still couldnot pop up netscape and it just wrote a lock
> > >file in .netscape directory everytime i click the icon.
> > >
> > >Whats happening?
> >
> > We don't know, and can't tell you, because you haven't given us enough
> > information to go on. So, here's what you do:
> > 1) open an Xterm window
> > 2) enter the netscape command (netscape &)
> > 3) tell us if there were any messages generated by netscape into the Xterm
> > (which sometimes happens when netscape has a problem).
> > 4) tell us what those messages were
> >
> > We'll ask further questions if necessary.
> >
> > >thanks very much in advance
> > >
> > >ywk
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Andreas Kahari wrote:
> > >> =
> > >
> > >> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, ywk@SuSE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wr=
> > >ote:
> > >> >Hi :inuxers
> > >> >I am running SuSE 6.4 with netscape 4.72. The problem is Netscape
> > >> >couldnot pop up on all my users' desktop. I have checked the settings,=
> > >
> > >> >nothing wrong! Just SuSE keeps writing a lock file to .netscape
> > >> >directory that block the initialization of the browser, why?
> > >> >there is no problem on root
> > >> >anything i can do about it please?
> > >> >
> > >> >ywk
> > >> =
> > >
> > >> That lock file ought to be removed by Netscape when the user quits it.
> > >> It will not be removed if the user logs out without quitting Netscape
> > >> in "the right way" (using 'Exit' in the 'File' menu, or pressing
> > >> 'Alt+Q').
> > >> =
> > >
> > >> In general, logging out (or killing X) without quitting your
> > >> applications is a really Bad Thing since most applications won't clean
> > >> up after themselves or have time to warn the user of unsaved work.
> > >> =
> > >
> > >> Your problem will be solved by instructing your users to quit all
> > >> applications before logging out. The file '~/.netscape/.lock' can be
> > >> removed manually if it exists and if Netscape is not running.
> > >> =
> > >
> > >> /A
> > >> =
> > >
> > >> --
> > >> # Andreas K=E4h=E4ri, <URL:http://hello.to/andkaha/>.
> > >> # ...brought to you from Uppsala, Sweden.
> > >> # All junk e-mail is reported to the appropriate authorities.
> > >> # Criticism, cynicism and irony available free of charge.
> >
> > Lew Pitcher
> > System Consultant
> > Toronto Dominion Bank Financial Group
> >
> > (Opinions expressed are my own, not my employers')
There is a known problem with the version of netscape that comes with
SuSE 6.4. Go to the SuSE site and download the updated version.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 06:00:59 -0500
From: Dan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: how and where do I get linux?
Noe Nieto wrote:
> =
> hello :
> =
> I=B4m a windows user and i want to change my system, i tried to downl=
oad
> the caldera system open linux at their ftp server but some times my sys=
tem
> don=B4t understand the format of the files.
> please i really thank information about getting started on linux.
> =
> P.D. I live in mexico, so my english is not the best sorry :-)
> =
> --
> Posted via CNET Help.com
> http://www.help.com/
Try going to www.linuxmall.com They should have a variety of
different distrobutions for you to order on CD ROM. Just remember to
read up on how to use the OS first, and how to install it before you
decide to take the plunge.
Dan
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 06:08:40 -0500
From: Dan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.windows.x.motif
Subject: Re: uil + wml = headache
"Melvin M. Meadlin II" wrote:
>
> Anyone know were to get the *complete* source to the uil and wml compilers for
> OpenMotif? I downloaded the source for OpenMotif, but the sources for uil and
> wml were not complete.... Could someone please help. We need these compilers
> for a project we are working on at work.
>
> If you don't know where the source is, could you at point me in the direction of
> the binaries for RedHat 6.1 (x86).
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> ________________________________________
> Melvin M. Meadlin II
> 661.277.5555
> CSC
> Attn: Melvin M. Meadlin II
> P.O. Box 446 Bldg. 1408
> Edwards, CA 93523
Here is the URL:
http://www.openmotif.org/download/dldform.php
Dan
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas)
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux,comp.os.linux.x
Subject: Re: Is Mandrake Really Red Hat...
Date: 24 Aug 2000 04:27:11 GMT
In comp.os.linux.x Radix <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi there...
>
> I was recently told that mandrake was just a scaled down version of Red
> Hat... Does that mean that Red Hat makes Mandrake???? The same person
> told me that all the basic utility (the ones that are tailored by Red
> Hat) are the same for both distro.... Is any of this true??? Thanks...
>
One could possibly argue that since (apparantly) neither torvalds nor
cox had anything to do with mandrakes ballsy kernel header "clean up",
that mandrake isnt actually linux at all.
=====yttrx
------------------------------
From: David Dorward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: small installation
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 05:38:48 +0100
Eduardo Mu=F1oz wrote:
> =
> David Dorward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> =
> > There are distros on freshmeat.net that run from a floppy. And you ca=
n
> > download disk images to install debian on a system without a CD-ROM
> > drive from www.debian.com
> =
> www.debian.org
> ---
debian.com is set up as a forwarder to debian.org, it doesn't matter
which you use
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (jeff)
Subject: Re: Disk clone - almost
Date: 24 Aug 2000 04:43:48 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thanks for the post, Juergen - but what we're having here is, I believe, a
failure to communicate. I _AM_ using dd to copy _ONLY_ THE MBR. dd is NOT
copying anyhing in hda1 or any other partition. The COUNT=1 AND BS=512 AND
IF=HDA on the dd specify that only the _FIRST_ 512-BYTE BLOCK ON THE
PHYSICAL DISK is to be copied. The rsyncs are copying the data within the
partitions, the dd is copying ONLY the mbr (count=1 bs=512).
AM I WRONG ABOUT ANY OF THAT?
It all makes perfect sense AND explains my LI message problem, as I posted
previously. 2 + 2 still seems to = 4! But if I'm still being dense and
missing your point, please try again :)
-jeff
(BTW - to repeat a pervious point - rsync is a much better long term for my
purpose than dd because - once the clone is created and synced the first
time - I can resync it every night it mere minutes - since rsync will copy
only changes.)
==========
On Thu, 24 Aug 2000 06:06:02 +0200, Juergen Pfann
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: jeff wrote:
>>
>
>I'm sorry, Jeff - NO, you're still getting 5 by adding 2 and 2...
>You still mix up the copying of files from one filesystem to another
>( as is e.g. cp's, rsync's or tar's behaviour ), with dd's way of
>operation - that is, transferring each and every bit from one place
>to another without care of any overlaying structures like partitions,
>filesystems and such !!!
>Let me repeat that - "dd" is a typical UNIX tool - simple, but effective
>and very mighty not DESPITE, but JUST BECAUSE of its simplicity !
>dd basically does no more than to read a stream of bytes - the
>input"file",
>"if=..." - and to write that stream back to another location -
>outputfile,
>"of=...". What is the clue to the enormous flexibility, is any UNIX's
>concept of "device files", saying (in short) that you can access devices
>like floppy or hard disks, CD-ROMs, whatever, by using a special file
>such as /dev/fd0, dev/hda, dev/hdb and so on.
>So, one of the mistakes you wrote in one of your postings was the notion
>that you only talk about the MBR when using /dev/hda - in fact, you talk
>about the WHOLE DISK instead...
>Thus, if you think again, the command 'dd if=/dev/hda of=/dev/hdb' does
>the job you want - i.e. transferring EVERY sector from HD 1 to EVERY
>sector on HD 2 !! BUT, maybe now you see this can only work if both
>disks are IDENTICAL in size, i.e. share the same number of sectors -
>they don't even need to be by the same manufacturer, or one can be IDE
>and the other SCSI, as long as they don't differ even by one single
>sector !
>Along with that sector-by-sector transfer, you do transfer the MBR
>including the partition table, starting and ending of each partition,
>and every file on each partition's file system. So, according to the
>subject, this would be a perfect clone : if the 2 disks are 2 items of
>the same model, every operating system and every human could *only*
>discern between both by the drive's serial number - which really is
>irrelevant otherwise...
>So, if you can't boot from the clone, you either didn't issue the
>above command correctly (what to me seems hard to do...), or you
>don't meet the OBLIGATORY condition for this - your disks aren't
>identical in size !!!
>Maybe now you also see that your 'rsync' magic previous to the
>'dd' is totally useless - as you overwrite the copied files
>afterwards again!
>Think about that, please, Jeff, and read dd's manual page thoroughly,
>for instance how to copy only one or some sectors/bytes, and please
>do test some examples, for instance with floppies, like
>"dd if=/dev/fd0 of=/tmp/floppy-image". You can then try to mount
>the *disk file* /tmp/floppy-image as "loop device" and compare it's
>contents including file system to the floppy disk itself; or, simply
>clone your floppy by exchanging "if" and "of" in the above command -
>then we're ready for the next lesson...
>
>Juergen
------------------------------
From: Vito Prosciutto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Use linux machine to handle automated backups from windows and mac
systems on network?
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 04:40:46 GMT
Oh, and one more thing: Assuming I use NFS to mount the disks, is this
capability built into Win 2k and Mac OS 9 on their ends?
-dh
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tomalak)
Subject: Re: Best Linux Distribution
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 04:57:08 GMT
On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 03:03:40 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Richard
Steiner) wrote:
:
:Not necessarily. Even though the question can be inflammatory, it is
:sometimes (often) an indication that the person posing the question
:does not understand the complex nature of the issues involved.
:
:There is still an opportunity for education here. That is what Usenet
:is about. Well, that and flaming. :-) But the latter is best left in
:the advocacy newsgroups, isn't it?
Absolutely -- "an opportunity for education" is the modus opererandi
here, or at least should be! If a person has neither the aptitude nor
patience to be an educator, then they really should learn to use the
filter option in their favorite news reader. Otherwise, with ID10T
posts -- inform the newbie the question was ambiguous, and ask for
clarification. Help them help themselves -- don't flame the poor guy.
BTW: I noticed the original poster has moved on, and installed a
distro of GNU/Linux. As I recall, his new post asked questions
concerning networking issues between GNU/Linux with OS/2.
So, like -- is any one up to flaming his posts now?
------------------------------
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End of Linux-Misc Digest
******************************
