On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 06:00:33 +1300
Timothy Musson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Nick Rout, 2003-11-25 23:11:39:
> > On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 20:17:35 +1300
> > Peter Elliott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > wondering about the GeForce card(s) - as in don't they use an nvidia
> > > chipset& doesn't this present problems/hassles for linux users
>  
> > I say what???? nvidia drivers may be closed source, but they have
> > excellent linux suport.
> 
> Oxymoron! :P

no it is not an oxymoron. excellent linux support does not have to
equate to open source drivers. I agree OS is preferable. I am not sure
why the big 3 3d board manufacturers do not open their drivers. after
all you cannnot use the driver without buying the card. Perhaps the
details necessary to open the driver would give away too much about
their hardware details. If that is the case then they have a legitimate
concern. graphics chips are a very competitive market.


  
[snip long quote from LJ]
> 
> (Hey Nick, I'm not flaming, okay? I just disagree, so I'm saying so :^)
> 
> I don't find it positive that more and more companies are jumping on the
> "Linux" bandwagon, by providing proprietary software and claiming to
> "support" me. I find it insulting and offensive.
> 
> If people just go along with this kind of thing, what was the point in
> the first place? We might as well give up and switch to Microsoft,
> Apple, etc., where everything's just peachy and the following things are
> a fact of life:
> 
> Lock-in, bugs you can't do anything about, misery, desolation, distrust,
> secret file formats, viruses, plagues, pimples and warts, hair-loss,
> data-loss, adware, famine, forced upgrades, lies and dishonesty,
> uncertainty, crashes, split-ends and hang-nails, spyware, death,
> restricted freedom, and dags.
> 
> There's nothing positive about it.

take a few things as given and you will see that nvidia are the best
choice (maybe the best of a bad bunch, but we are talking practicalities
here)

premise one: the big 3 three-d manufacturers are  closed source for
commercial reasons (I only have the LJ article as justification for that
statement, I am assuming it to be correct)..

premise two: nvidia are helpful to the point that a single end user can
get hold of a nvidia engineer and solve a problem with compatibility
between an nvidia graphics card and a bleeding edge dual processor
opteron 64 bit motherboard (maybe it heklped that the single end user
was writing the "ultimate linux box" article for LJ?). also nv have, it
seems, an engineer helping linux people on online for about 50% of his
working day (source again the LJ article)

premise three: the other 3d card manufactuers are not as helpful

premise four: 3d graphics is desirable (not true for everyone or every
machine)

Taking those four premises I'd say nv do have good linux support, and are
worth supporting. Taking away premise one and saying "oh but it would be
so much better if the open sourced" is not what we are talking about, we
are talking real world and in the real world it appears that premise one
remains. If someone does open source a good and cheap modern 3d chipset
then my view will change. 

i guess it comes to this rhtorical statement: whats the next best thing
to open source drivers and open specifications: a company like nvidia
that actually does help people.

PS before a whole lot of people (in particular Volker I know you have
your views on this) comment on the nv motherboard/ethernet issues, this
conversation and my views are restricted to graphics boards. 

> 
> As for drivers: hardware manufacturers making specifications available
> (i.e., to allow the development of free drivers), _that_ would be
> positive.
> 
> 

see above - i guess they have secrets to protect. 


> Tim
> -- 
> Timothy Musson  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~trmusson/
> A day for firm decisions!!!! Or is it?
> 

-- 
Nick Rout <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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