Hello I've been researching the K7S5A boards from ECS because I wanted to buy one. And I stumbled accross the text below.
It seems that the board has problems running at CPU 133/RAM 133Mhz. Especially the T-bird 1400 seems a likely victim. Has anyone seen this behavior? Is it stable with Linux? Thanks Guy Member Rated: <http://forum.ocworkbench.com/ocwbcgi/user_ratings_1.gif> <http://forum.ocworkbench.com/ocwb/icons/icon2.gif> posted 06 November 2001 16:10 [Profile for MrAthlon] [Edit/Delete Post] [Reply With Quote] FAQ 1.41 on K7S5A (M830) Data Corruption CONTENTS: PART 1: Overview PART 2: First things to check PART 3: The (suspected) cause and ?non-causes? of the problem PART 4: The (best-known) solution PART 5: Summary of testing and research PART 6: Revision History PART 1: Overview Problem: Some K7S5A (and M830) motherboards suffer from what appears to be a data corruption problem when used with certain CPU?s. The problem is common with Athlon 1.4 GHz processors, and is occasional with various Athlon CPU?s above 1GHz. The problem is much less common with Athlon XP processors. The problem has been reported (but has not been confirmed) at speeds under 1GHz. The problem appears to be limited to motherboards with the number 4 or higher on a small sticker by the PCI slots. Symptoms: Memtest86 Errors, 133/133 failures and problems, Crashes, Blue Screens, Windows Protection Errors, OS installation failures, corrupted CD burns, Windows Registry corruption, general data corruption, etc. (Note: It now appears that the CONFIGMG and ?Lost CMOS? problems are largely unrelated to this problem.) The Manufacturer?s statement on the problem: Please read here. PART 2: First things to check Q: How do I know if I?m effected by this problem? A: You may have system stability problems as outlined above. These can be hard to pin down, so download and run the Memtest86 program. (www.memtest86.com ) If you can run through all tests without any memory errors, you should not have the problem and you most likely have a rock-solid setup. When the K7S5A is working, it works great. (In rare cases, problems can still exist when Memtest86 does not report them. It is not yet known if these other problems are caused by a bad motherboard, or by some other cause.) Q: Memtest86 reports errors, but I still think my system is ?stable.? Do I really have a problem? A: It depends: A suggestion has been made that Memtest86 may not correctly report errors. This may be the case, or it may be that Memtest86 is just very good at finding errors. This is still under investigation. Most reports indicate that yes, this is a real problem if you have data on your hard drive, or process data on your computer that must be 100% correct. This pretty much includes anyone using the computer for serious work. Still, some users have Memtest86 errors and don't find it to be a problem. So, no, maybe it?s not much of a problem if you don?t have any data that is super important to you, and don?t mind the possible risk of crashes or data corruption. Also, if you only have a few errors (<100) your chances of data corruption may be very small. For some users, this may be acceptable. For others, a system with no known hardware errors is very desirable. Q: Explain exactly how the system can seem so stable when data corruption is occurring? A: The data corruption appears to be ?pattern sensitive? which means that only certain patterns of data result in corruption, and usually cause a single bit of bad data. The patterns that cause corruption may or may not be written frequently by the OS or applications. Even when they are written and corrupted, the corruption may not crash your OS or application. Most applications are ?bit-error tolerant? which means that a few bits of error in memory will not be detected right away. This is why it is possible to have a computer that seems to be stable, and why it may be possible to pass many typical system and memory tests. The reason most OS and application software is ?bit-error tolerant? is because programmers expect that the hardware will work 100% correctly and will not corrupt the data. When data corruption is expected, methods such as CRC, Parity, ECC and Verification are used to check and even correct the data. This does not typically occur in normal OS and applications running in system memory. Most popular CD writing software are good examples of ?bit-error tolerant? programs. They will write a CD, but will not take the extra time to read back the entire CD to verify that each file was written 100% correctly. They skip the verification this because it can take as long to verify the CD as to write it, and on most systems it will always verify correctly. (The problem was originally discovered by CD writing software that would automatically verify the entire CD, and would fail every time.) The BIOS for these motherboards does not have an option to turn on/off the CPU Cache ECC, so its possible influence/impact is unknown. Also, the number of errors can vary over time. The problem appears to be primarily related the driving impedance of the CPU and/or the actual impedance of the motherboard and/or the actual behavior of the CPU. All three of these can change slightly over time and temperature. Because many motherboards seem to be ?just on the edge? of working correctly, the number and type of errors you encounter may change significantly with time and with relatively small changes in CPU temperature. Q: OK, I downloaded Memtest86, made the floppy disk, and I have the problem. Is my motherboard bad? What should I do? A: It?s possible that your motherboard is "bad," but you must first check several other important components of your system before you can be sure -- you must check your BIOS Settings, Memory, Power Supply and CPU temperature. See below. Q: What BIOS and BIOS Settings should I use? A: Be sure your memory timing is set to Normal or Safe. Leave all other memory settings at their defaults. If you?re not sure, use the clear CMOS jumper on the motherboard to reset to factory defaults. Then, set your CPU speed to 133/133 (or 100/100 for a 200FSB processor) and try again. A few users have reported improvements with the 011016 BIOS although this has not been confirmed by any controlled tests. Still, you may want to try this BIOS version. IMPORTANT: You must have a stable system configuration before you update the BIOS or you could end up with a corrupted BIOS that may not boot. Try setting your CPU speed to 100/100 and use Memtest86 to see if your system is OK before you update. If you still have errors, go into the BIOS and turn off the L1 (and L2) CPU cache. This will make your computer slow, but should allow you to update without error in most situations. Q: I get Memtest86 errors at Fast and Ultra memory settings, but not at Normal. What does this mean? A: This means your motherboard is working correctly. The Fast and Ultra memory settings are made for very fast memory chips, not normal chips. If you can only run at the Normal setting, it means that your memory operates at normal PC2100 or PC133 speeds. If you want to run at the Fast or Ultra settings, try some higher quality memory. Q: How do I know if my Memory is OK? A: It is expected that true ?bad memory? will show errors at the exact same addresses each time you run Memtest86. If you have a wide range of error addresses that change each time, the problem is not likely to be in you memory itself. It is usually easy to confirm that your memory works properly by changing your processor. At this time it?s hard to say what kind of processor will work for sure. The best chance is to try a slow Athlon/Duron (1000MHz or less) or an Athlon XP/MP processor. Be sure to use the same 133/133 CPU speed settings if possible. If you continue to have the same problems in Memtest86, check the Power Supply and CPU cooler, and try your memory in another computer, if possible. If you don?t have access to another processor, just try setting you CPU clock to 100/100. This will allow you to test your system at a lower speed that just might pass the test. Many ?bad? motherboards still cause errors at 100/100. If you still have errors at 100/100, you might have low-quality memory, a bad motherboard, or some other problem. You?ll have to keep testing to find out. Be sure to use high quality PC2100 or PC133 Memory. If possible, get memory from the approved list in the manual or on the web site. The problem has been confirmed with both PC2100 and PC133 memory, but is generally less severe with PC133 memory. Q: What Power Supply do I need? Should I really buy a 350W or 400W super supply for $$$? A: You need a good power supply that can provide 5V with enough current to run your motherboard and all other components: The best option is to buy an ?AMD Approved for Athlon 1400MHz? Power Supply. Note that just ?AMD Approved? is not enough, because it might only be approved for some slower Athlon (like Athlon 1000) and that?s not going to work if you have a 1400/1333/1300 processor. AMD?s web site (www.amd.com) has a list of every power supply they have tested and approved. There are plenty of units that support the Athlon 1400, and they can be found on the Internet for under $40. If you don?t have an AMD approved power supply, get one. In general, you will not need to get a super 350-400W power supply. Unless it is rather expensive, one of these is often not AMD approved at all, or is not as good as a basic 300W AMD Approved unit. The possible exception where you may need to spend the $$$ on an AMD Approved 350W+ supply is when your system is loaded with other power-hungry items like a super fast Video Card (or two for dual monitor support), multiple 7200-10000RPM hard drives, multiple CD-RW drives, SCSI cards, etc. Q: What CPU temperature is OK and what CPU Cooler do I need? A: The Athlon processors at 1GHz+ are rated to operate correctly at temperatures up to 95C (about 200F!). Typical CPU coolers and case setups will keep the temperature of the CPU in the 45-65C range and this is very acceptable. If the BIOS reports a CPU temperature above 65C, you should consider a better CPU cooling system, and/or a better case cooling system, and make sure you have a good thermal grease/thermal pad on your heatsink where it touches the CPU. Q: What CPU voltage is OK? A: The Athlon processors are specified to work between 1.65V and 1.85V. The BIOS should show the Core Voltage within this range. 1.74-1.76 is the most common and is ideal. If your voltage is less than 1.65V or more than 1.85V, you may have a problem of some kind related to the CPU power supply. Some users have noticed that the reading for the Core Voltage jumps between different levels in the BIOS. This can happen even on good motherboards and is not a concern unless the voltage jumps are .1V or more (i.e. if the voltage jumps from 1.66 to 1.76 to 1.66 to 1.76, etc.) PART 3: The cause of the problem and ?non-causes? of the problem Q: I have checked and double-checked everything in PART 2 of this FAQ and everything looks good. What?s causing the Memtest86 errors? A: Most likely, a ?bad? motherboard. Q: What exactly is wrong with the ?bad? motherboards? A: The exact problem is not known, but currently two things appear to be issues: 1) 99% of the problem: The ?ZP issue? (Driver Impedance). Testing has found that ?bad? motherboards do not work correctly because of the way they ?program? ZP, the AMD bus driver impedance for the CPU. These ?bad? boards program the CPU to approximately 56 Ohms. Changing the motherboard?s ZP resistance to a value closer to 40 Ohms is thought to make the signals stronger and has fixed the problem in several dozen confirmed cases and in several dozen additional reported cases. So far, there have only been a few reported (and no confirmed) cases of changes to the ZP resistor that did not result in a complete correction of the problem. (Naturally, there are other possible problems and this fix doesn?t fix everything!) In addition to the ZP resistance, the actual board impedance may vary, as does the actual driving characteristics of each CPU. This means there are at least three variables in this ?ZP issue? equation. If you get a good match on all three, your setup is likely to work pretty well. If you have a bad match, you may have many errors. Overall it appears that ?bad? motherboards are right on the edge of working correctly. This is why the problem has been so hard to identify, and some boards actually work quite well, while others are really quite bad. It appears that boards with 0, 1, or 2 (maybe also 3) on the sticker by the PCI slots usually have 40 Ohm ZP and ZN resistors on the board. Boards with 4+ usually have 40 Ohms for ZN and 56 Ohms for ZP. This change seems to approximately coincide with the approval for Athlon XP processors. Although the reasons are not known, an AMD document has been circulating that states motherboards designed for XP processors should use 56 Ohms for ZP as a starting resistance. Most fixed board testing has been done with 200 Ohm resistors placed in parallel with the 56 Ohm ZP resistor on the board, bringing the effective resistance to about 44-46 Ohms. This seems to work well for both Athlon and Athlon XP processors. 2) 1% of the problem: Noise. Although usually not a problem, the Power Switching FET?s and Diodes in the CPU power supply circuit generate large amounts of noise. The motherboard has a ?leak path? that passes this noise directly onto the 12V power line. Typical boards have 3-4 volts of ?bursting high-frequency? noise on the 12V line that might be the cause of occasional data corruption or other problems. This is still under investigation. Q: Are there some versions of the Athlon Thunderbird or Athlon XP CPU?s that don?t have the problem? A: Generally, the Duron processors, Athlon processors less than 1GHz, and Athlon XP/MP processors seem to work much better. Apparently, all versions of the basic Athlon chips, "A4-A9" show signs of the problem. Please note that the behavior of each CPU can be different, even of the same model from the same date code. This can mean that the same Motherboard with its specific ZP resistance and board impedance may work with one CPU and not with another CPU of exactly the same specification. Q: Why do some Memtest86 tests pass and others fail? A: Memtest86 will typically find errors in Test #3, #4, #5 and #6. These tests seem to be more sensitive to the problem. Q: What are the errors that Memtest86 is reporting and why does it find them? A: Memtest86 usually reports pattern errors and block move errors in large quantities. These problems are thought to be caused by the degraded signals that result from the impedance mismatch. It is important to note that the "problem" is _not_ in the memory itself. Instead, the problem appears to be caused by the motherboard's interaction with the CPU and/or memory. Other memory testers may not report memory errors, because the memory itself is generally OK. Memtest86 just happens to do pattern tests that end up in corrupted data. Since it is a memory tester, it reports corrupted data as "memory errors" even though the errors are not caused by bad memory. In this sense, Memtest86 is not the best utility to find a "bad" motherboard, but it is the best utility available at this time. Q: I pressed ?c? in Memtest86 and turned the Cache memory to OFF. Then all the tests passed, why? A: This is not fully understood. Maybe the cache is sensitive to the problem, or maybe it?s just that turning the Cache memory off makes Memtest86 run fewer tests. Q: Does this mean I can just turn off the CPU cache in the BIOS and the problem will be fixed? A: Possibly, but don?t bother. The system will be slow like a Pentium 100 (or worse) with the cache turned off. Q: Does anything else in the system have an effect on the problem? What about my video card, hard drives, OS, etc? A: As far as testing can determine, nothing else has any significant impact on the problem. Q: Could it be the clock speed? My system shows 1394MHz instead of 1400MHz and that?s not quite right. A: The motherboard actually runs at 99.5% of the standard 133.33MHz. This is caused by the limited clock options built into the ICS clock chip used on the board. This chip has a 133.33 setting that is used by the motherboard, but there is a -.5% speed variance at that setting. Other settings, like 133.9MHz have a +/-.25% speed variance, but would result in the CPU running a bit too fast. Q: I got the CONFIGMG errors while using DDR memory, then I switched to PC133, and the problem went away. Doesn?t this mean that the problem is with DDR memory, or at least my stick of DDR memory? A: No. Running the motherboard with PC133 memory usually reduces the number of errors, and this helps make the CONFIGMG error less frequent. Extensive testing has found that almost all bad motherboards that have errors with DDR memory will also have errors with PC133 memory. The reduction in memory errors does not appear to be directly related to the different memory, but the motherboard behaves differently when using it. Also, the CONFIGMG error appears to be caused by a bug in the BIOS that sometimes detects two memory modules, when only one is installed. This cause of the problem is not related to the data-corruption problem, unless it is the data corruption that makes BIOS think there are two memory modules installed. Q: Could it simply be that the 1400MHz processor takes too much power and that?s the cause of the problem? A: No, the motherboard has no problem supplying the power for 1400MHz. This has been verified by careful measurements with a high speed oscilloscope. In addition, additional power loads of 14W (equivalent of about 200MHz in additional CPU speed) have been added to the core voltage while running an Athlon 1400, and the motherboards have no problems with that either. Q: What about the theory about different power FET?s on good and bad versions of the board? A: Not correct. Both the IR and NEC power FET?s used on different versions of the boards are able to handle the power requirements with no problem. Testing has found that the noise signature of these two types are a little different, but special motherboard changes have been made to greatly reduce their noise (at the expense of more wasted power) and the noise does not appear to be related to the problem. Q: Can I just raise the Core voltage to 1.85V to solve the problem? A: Generally, no. A higher core voltage usually makes the problem worse not better. Feel free to try if you?d like, the processor is designed to work at 1.65 to 1.85 so it shouldn?t hurt anything. Q: So, is there some kind of clock quality problem? A: No. The ?spectral signature? (FFT) of the clocks on good motherboards match those on bad motherboards. Q: Even if it?s AMD approved, couldn?t it still be some problem with the Power Supply? A: Not likely. A bad power supply can definitely cause problems, but no power supply can fix the data corruption problem. Testing on more than 8 power supplies, and testing with lab quality power sources has confirmed that there is no power supply solution to the problem. Q: Why isn?t the problem just bad memory? It?s Memtest86 that finds the errors and it says they are memory errors. A: Memtest86 is actually testing the CPU, Cache and Memory all at the same time, and it can?t tell exactly where the problem is. If the memory really is bad, Memtest will find errors at specific locations in the memory chip, and should find them on any motherboard. When Memtest finds the same ?errors? on every memory chip, but only on one motherboard and at one CPU speed, it points to the motherboard and CPU as the problem. Q: I?ve seen references to a Memory voltage adjustment that will move the memory from 2.5V to 2.6V. Will this help? A: Not likely. A higher memory voltage is really only good when you need the memory to run faster for overclocking. Extensive testing with a range of memory voltages has found that it has no impact on the problem. Q: Is the problem that AMD only approved the board for the Athlon XP processors? A: Not clear. Many boards seem to have trouble with both Athlon and Athlon XP processors. Other boards work very well with both Athlon and Athlon XP processors. Q: I see both K7S5A and M830LR motherboards for sale on the net. Both are listed in the test setup in part 5 of this FAQ. Are there any differences between them? A: There are cosmetic differences such as color of the PCB and in the printing of the name on the board and heatsink. Beyond that, there are no known differences. Both boards act exactly the same way and have exactly the same errors. Whatever small differences there might be, none seem to impact the problem. PART 4: The Solution Q: So what can I do? A: You can live with it, or try one of these three options: 1) Get another processor. Most "bad" motherboards will work correctly with a slower Athlon (1000MHz or less) or with an Athlon XP processor. You might even just try a different CPU of the same speed. 2) Get another motherboard. The exact value of ZP varies (testing on about 100 boards found actual ZP values from about 55 Ohms to 58 Ohms). In many cases, 55 Ohms is low enough to eliminate all or virtually all errors (depending on the specific board and CPU), while 58 Ohms will generally cause huge numbers of errors. Therefore, if you swap your board out for a new one, there?s a change you will get a lower ZP resistance. You might even ask your dealer to check the ZP resistance with a Digital Multi-Meter to find one that is around 55 Ohms. 3) Apply the fix . If you have steady hands, good eyes, and can solder small parts, you should be able to fix your motherboard yourself, see below. Q: Can I just set the BIOS to CPU speed of 100/100 to fix the problem? A: Sometimes. Testing on a couple dozen motherboards has found that many will work correctly at 100/100, and many will not. If you have good results in Memtest at 100/100, your board should be safe to use. Q: Is there anything I can solder/unsolder from the board that might make the problem better? A: Yes, but not easily. The ZP resistor on the motherboard seems to be the key to this problem. Changing it to a value in the range of 40-50 Ohms seems to fix the problem. Unfortunately, the resistor is small and hard to solder, unless you have a fine-tip soldering iron, and a very steady hand. Plus, if you mess up and get a little solder where it?s not supposed to be, you can short Vcore to Ground and the motherboard might be damaged or destroyed when you turn the power on. Fortunately, the resistors are easy to find, and are shown in the fix guide . They are side by side, inside the CPU socket area on the corner that is the farthest from the AMR slot. Note: If your motherboard has one or both resistors marked 59X, it (they) are already be 40 Ohms and should not need the fix. You will only need to reduce a resistor marked ?560? and adding a resistor (180-220 Ohms recommended) in parallel. Also, there is a small capacitor that causes a noise leak path from the CPU power supply onto the 12V line. Inserting a ferrite bead (or small inductor) in series with this capacitor can choke the noise down to around 1V on the 12V line and can clean up any remaining errors that might persist after the resistor fix above. This fix has been reported to correct other strange problems as well, such as video artifacts on LCD flat panel monitors. Again, you?ll need a steady hand, a small soldering iron, and you?ll need to find a surface mount ferrite bead or inductor to install. The capacitor is located just off the corner of the CPU socket that is closest to the AMR slot. It is a large (thick) surface mount capacitor, right next to the two through-hole diodes that are right below the through-hole 16pin power supply PWM control chip. One side of the Capacitor is connected with a heavy trace right into the heart of the CPU power supply circuit. If you unsolder the Capacitor, and then solder it in an upright position, you can then solder the inductor in an upright position where the other side of the capacitor was and bridge the tops of both together. It is also possible to break the 12V trace right under the PWM chip and solder the ferrite bead or inductor there with good results. See the fix guide. For those wondering about a ferrite/inductor to block the noise, I looked up the parts I have been using: TDK part number HF50ACC453215-T. Their information is here, and here: http://www.tdk.co.jp/tefe02/e9413_ACC.pdf Q: My system is working fine, but I want better overclocking capability. Will the ?fix? give me that? A: Generally, no. There have not yet been any confirmed cases where an otherwise 100% working system has changed the overclocking abilities for CPU speed or memory timings. Still, extensive testing has not been done, and you?re welcome to try. PART 5: Summary of testing and research on the problem Just about every possible component has been switched on every motherboard in every combination that makes sense. The problem always follows the motherboard, and does not appear to be a problem with any of the added components. On all tested ?bad? motherboards, the problem is completely eliminated (or at least reduced by 99.9%) by adding a 200 Ohm resistor in parallel with the ZP resistor to change the value to 44-46 Ohms. These boards then work with all tested Athlon, Duron, Athlon MP and Athlon XP processors. One ?good? Motherboard, a Rev 0 board, always works very well and is 99.9% solid, passes every Memtest86 test with virtually every item listed below. This motherboard has two 59X, 40 Ohm resistors. Since this is the only motherboard that came with two 40 Ohm resistors, it's no surprise that it works perfectly. With 1.4GHz processors, the 26 Rev 4/Rev 6 ?bad? motherboards fail Memtest86 at 133/133. About half also fail at 100/100. With one particular Athlon XP 1800+, and one Athlon MP 1200 processor, all 27 motherboards (?good? and ?bad?) are 100% solid with every item listed below. Testing on one ?bad? motherboards with 4 additional Athlon XP processors found that 3 of the 4 do not work, while one seems to work fine. All 4 additional Athlon XP processors were tested on 3 randomly selected ?fixed? boards and work perfectly. All the Athlon XP processors worked correctly in subsequent testing on more than 10 other ?bad? boards. Different BIOS versions seem to have no impact on the problem. Memtest86 usually finds errors in Tests #3, #4, #5, and/or #6 on ?bad? boards. The Athlon MP 1200 runs rock-solid and passes all Memtest86 tests, even at 150/150, on 5 randomly tested ?bad? motherboards. All DDR memory was tested at this speed (300MHz) as well, and works perfectly on the ?bad? motherboards when using the MP processor. A stand-alone lab power supply was used to supply all power lines for the motherboard to ensure that none were lacking from the standard ATX supplies. No voltage variations on any power lines had any impact on the problem. A stand-alone lab power supply was used to adjust the 3.3V and memory 2.5V/1.25V on the motherboard itself, with no effect. All the main clock and power signals into and out of the CPU were carefully compared between the ?good? board and ?bad? boards. No conclusive differences could be found. Confirmed failure symptoms: Memtest86 errors (of course) CD-RW write corruption Windows Blue Screens Windows Registry corruption OS install failure (Linux) Windows Protection Errors Windows lockups Boot failure Test Setup: 27 Motherboards: One Rev 0, two Rev 4, 24 Rev 6 boards. (some K7S5A?s and some M830?s, appear to be identical and work with each-other?s BIOS) 19 CPU?s: Three Athlon 1400 266FSB, One Athlon 1400 200FSB, Two Athlon XP 1800+, One Athlon XP 1700+, Two Athlon XP 1600+, One Athlon MP 1200 266FSB, One Athlon 1200 200FSB, One Athlon 1333 266FSB, One Athlon 1300 200FSB, One Duron 650, One Duron 1000, Four Duron 750 19 Memory sticks: Two Samsung PC2100 DDR 128MB, Four Samsung PC2100 DDR 256MB, Four Kingmax PC2100 DDR 256MB, Two Winbond PC2100 DDR 512MB, One Crucial PC2100 256MB, One Kingmax PC133 256MB, One PC166 256MB, One PC166 128MB, One Micron PC133 256MB, Three generic PC133 3 BIOS versions: 010920, 010911 (OC), 011016 18 Power Supplies: One Sparkle 350W AMD Approved 1400MHz, One 300W AMD Approved 1400MHz ?Deer? brand, One 250W generic, Fifteen 300W AMD Approved 1400MHz ?PX-300W? Equipment: Protek 506 4 digit Digital DMM Tektronix TDS3034 300MHz digital oscilloscope Various lab grade power supplies and other equipment Software: Memtest86 2.8 Windows 98SE Windows Me Windows XP Redhat 7.1 Redhat 7.2 PART 6: Revision History 10/31/01, Original V1.0 release. 10/31/01, New V1.1 update ? Cause and solution found. 11/4/01, Update to V1.2 ? Small clarifications and corrections. 11/4/01, Update to V1.3 ? Athlon XP chips confirmed to have the problem. 11/9/01, Noted that "59X" resistors are 40 Ohm and don't need to be changed if present 11/9/01, Update to V1.4 - Official ECS response 11/20/01, Update to V1.41 ? Various clarifications ______________________________________________________ Get Your FREE FlashMail Address now at http://www.flashmail.com It's Free, Easy, & Fun !!! _______________________________________________ Linux-users mailing list Archives, Digests, etc at http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
