The reason why 3g nano and classic games are not yet cracked is the 
encrypted firmware. It's a pretty sophisticated system.

tof schrieb:
> MsTiFtS a écrit :
>   
>> Well, I seriously doubt that. To my knowledge the 3G also has a utility 
>> flash,
>>     
> i do not see any....
> http://insidetronics.blogspot.com/
> http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iPod/iPod-Nano-3rd-Generation/
>
> any source, not known to me ?
>
>
>   
>>  and the security issues seem to be very important to apple, as 
>> they not only prevent installing iPodLinux but only prevent you from 
>> cracking their music/games DRM scheme. They know what they are doing!
>>   
>>     
> cracking DRMs has nothing to do with restraining boot on ipods.
> DRMs will be surpassed by the music loader (i mean the soft which puts 
> the music on the pod...)...
> and as far as i know, on other ipods/iphone devices, the crypting has 
> been easily cracked because of the easy reading of te boot (i did not 
> inform extensively, so please correct me...)...
>
> christoph
>
>
>   
>> tof schrieb:
>>   
>>     
>>> my idea is :
>>>
>>> on the 2G, there was a utility flash, because the chip was probably not 
>>> able to load from main memory. redesign of the chip was launched, but 
>>> far too slow to fit with the dev time of the nano.
>>> on the 3G, the modified chip was ready, and the boot flash skipped.
>>>
>>> i doubt of security reasons being too important.
>>>
>>> the dissk manager within the bios will then map only a part to the usb, 
>>> which is anyway the case because of  bad blocks and so on.
>>> the only reason for what the biggest part of the firmware is within the 
>>> partition visible to the PS is to assure easy update, probably...
>>>
>>>
>>> christoph
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> MsTiFtS a écrit :
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> On the 2G there definitely is a utility flash. We can not tell for sure 
>>>> whether the loader is in there, but as the size of the update image 
>>>> roughly matches the size of the chip, I bet it is in there.
>>>> As far as I know the ARM has only a few KB of internal RAM and no ROM at 
>>>> all. I think that's the same on the 3G, AFAIK there is also a utility 
>>>> flash.
>>>>
>>>> Don't ask me where the memory size difference comes from, but on my 2G 
>>>> 8GB I have 7744MiB, that's about 8120MB, of visible flash.
>>>> I quickly flicked through your datasheet, but I didn't verify that these 
>>>> chips are indeed used in the nanos.
>>>> So we have 4x 2048MiB + 64MiB redundant memory. I don't know whether the 
>>>> ARM can access the redundant area, but hiding a boot loader in there 
>>>> would be way too risky.
>>>> So we have 8192MiB of usable space. That's roughly 8590MB. So we have 
>>>> about 470MB of hidden memory, 469762048 bytes to be exact, that's 
>>>> exactly 448MiB.
>>>> I would guess that they are used as some kind of an additional 
>>>> redundancy, as that's way too large to just hold a bootloader, and what 
>>>> would the utility flash then be good for?
>>>>
>>>> tof wrote:
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> Hello boys (and girls)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> i m new here, but a lot of ENSEIRB people know me...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My theory is : why could the loader from the 3G not be in the user flash ?
>>>>>
>>>>> imagine designing the nano 3G. You have to put away the the boot flash 
>>>>> (obvious costs reasons)
>>>>> two solutions :
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Rom in the SOC
>>>>> easy to realize if the chip maker has already this kind of solution.  i 
>>>>> did not check whether this exists on the nano2G controller type (if doc 
>>>>> exists...)
>>>>> if not, this is a complete redesign of the chip, which could take a very 
>>>>> long time, and huge effort, because 8 Mbit of flash is probably not so 
>>>>> easy to add on a process that was not used for flash memory.
>>>>> mask rom is easier to do, but not very convenient.
>>>>> remember : such a project is time tough because of the very short dev 
>>>>> time.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. use the user FLASH
>>>>> in my opinion, a good option because getting rid of another memory.
>>>>> redesign of the chip perhaps necessary if it cannot already boot from 
>>>>> this memory.
>>>>>
>>>>> the drawback of security is probably less important than the unit cost.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> i made some investigations on the flash size :
>>>>>
>>>>> http://insidetronics.blogspot.com/
>>>>>  >> It is a 8GByte chip, with four 2GByte dies stacked. In the 4Gbyte 
>>>>> iphone version, the chip is the K9MCG08U1M, that is a 4GByte, dual die 
>>>>> part.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://218.22.45.5/misc/Books/K9LAG08U0M_0.7.pdf
>>>>> here we see the organisation of the flash :
>>>>> 4* 0x100 000 *(0x800+0x40) Bytes  =  0x200 000 000 B + 0x10 000 000 B 
>>>>> (reserve for replacing bad blocks)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> the spec gives also the max bad block rate (new chip, some can appear 
>>>>> later) : 4* 200(max bad blocks) * 256K (block size)= C8 * 4 * 0x40000 = 
>>>>> C 800 000 Bytes
>>>>>
>>>>> conclusion : total usable bytes is 0x200 000 000  + 0x10 000 000 - 
>>>>> 0xC800000  = 0x203 800 000 = 8 648 654 848
>>>>> a little over 8G. assume apple rounded the use to 0x200 000 000 due to 
>>>>> size reserved for the bad block table ;)
>>>>>
>>>>> on the other hand the visible size is a lot less:
>>>>> on my ipod 3G 8gig, fdisk -l gives :
>>>>>
>>>>>  >>Disque /dev/sdc: 7952 Mo, 7952142336 octets
>>>>>  >>217 heads, 32 sectors/track, 279 cylinders
>>>>>  >>Units = cylindres of 6944 * 4096 = 28442624 bytes
>>>>>
>>>>> 7952142336 Bytes = 0x1D9 FC1 000, less than the flash size
>>>>>
>>>>> the difference is : 0x 26 03F 000 = 637 792 256 bytes
>>>>>
>>>>> Please correct me if i made some error or misinterpretation....
>>>>> perhaps there is some space lost in the mounting process, etc...
>>>>>
>>>>> so nearly 600 meg are not in our view. this seems non negligible to me.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> so what next ?
>>>>>
>>>>> a good idea could be to check if such a difference exists on the 2G. if 
>>>>> not, could be very good. (better to verify on the small size ones.)
>>>>> then its relatively easy to desolder and read the flash.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>>
>>>>> christoph(e) riehl
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>   
>>>>>     
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
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