Hi Greg and all,
Thanks for sharing your views on this important subject. You make excellent
points. I have to say, however, that there is absolutely no difference
between your views and my views on this subject. All that is needed here is
a little clarification and elaboration, so let me try to explain the
situation.
Many of our FLEAA members, myself included, engage in for-profit commercial
activities in the EV business. There is nothing wrong, inappropriate, nor
inconsistent with this and at the same time being a member of the non-profit
FLEAA and participating in the FLEAA's non-profit activities to educate the
public about EVs and promoting their adoption *in general* (please note the
emphasis on the term "in general", as opposed to using the FLEAA to promote
one's own individual EV business interests specifically).
The important thing here is that one just has to make a distinction between
the two and at least try to make an honest effort to keep the two roles
separate, as much as possible, to know which of the two hats you're wearing
at which time and not to wear both hats at the same time, and specifically
to try to avoid blatantly and shamelessly using the FLEAA to promote one's
own EV business interests. It is really just a matter of maintaining a
professional code of conduct and a modicum of ethics, of being honest, and
of making full disclosures about one's business interests when one discusses
in FLEAA forums or meetings certain products, services, or EVs in which one
has a financial interest. As long as you or any other member observe such
simple rules of professional ethics, etiquette, and really just plain common
sense, you and all of us will be fine and not jeopardize the FLEAA's
non-profit status and run afoul of the law and IRS regulations in that
regard.
Maybe it would help to be more specific in the way of an example, so let me
just take myself, although I might not be the best example for explaining
this distinction. I am investor in Vectrix (www.vectrix.com), a for-profit,
commercial company that manufactures and sells an electric motorcycle
through dealers around the country, including Foreign Affairs Auto in West
Palm Beach, which is Vectrix's South Florida dealer, and Jonathan Ortiz of
Foreign Affairs Auto is also a FLEAA member. Foreign Affairs Auto in West
Palm Beach also sells other EVs, including the ZENN NEV and ZAP LSEVs. All
of these are commercial, for-profit activities, and yet there is nothing
inconsistent or inappropriate with Jonathan Ortiz and myself being FLEAA
members, as long as we don't try to use the non-profit FLEAA to make
commercial solicitations and blatantly promote these EVs. There's probably
a little bit of gray area and lattitude here, maybe a bit of a fine line,
between providing information to people on the one hand and frequent,
blatant, hard-sell promotion and advertising pitches on the other hand.
Again, I think it's just a matter of common sense and discretion.
I try to refrain from coming on the FLEAA list and constantly talk about the
Vectrix electric motorcycle and use up a lot of bandwidth on that, and
although I have ridden it to many of our meetings, I don't need to get up
and pitch it, etc. It's there; people can see it; I don't need to say
anything; and most importantly, I have made plenty of disclosures to the
group that I am an investor in the company. I also try to be honest and
open about discussing any shortcomings of the product.
You spoke of contributing to people's commercial EV businesses and how it
takes money to make business work, etc. Here again, this is something that
I have done and continue to do. I have contributed a small amount of my
time, effort, some travel, and a little bit of money to one of our FLEAA
members' EV conversion business, Steve Clunn of Grassroots EV
(www.grassrootsev.com), in Ft. Pierce, in order to support Steve's small
business and help it grow. I do not have any financial interest in Steve's
business, no ownership interest, no shares, no profit or revenue sharing,
and no written or unwritten/verbal/gentlemen's agreements or understandings
with Steve of any such interest or revenue sharing for me in the future. I
have contributed to a commercial, for-profit business of one of our members
simply to help it grow and succeed but without any expectation of anything
in return for myself. If I do a kitcar EV project with Steve at some point
in the future, as I would like to do and have discussed with Steve and
others in the FLEAA, my understanding and agreement with Steve is that I
will do so by paying him his full, standard commercial rates for his time
and labor, without getting any break due to my past contributions to his
business. My contributions to Steve's business were also mentioned in a
recent article about his business in the Palm Beach Post.
When people ask me for a referral to commercial conversion businesses or
services here in Florida, at the present time I am referring people to two
converters:
1) Steve Clunn of Grassroots EV in Ft. Pierce
tel: 772-971-0533
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.grassrootsev.com
and
2) Lowell Simmons of Miramar High School in Miramar
tel: 754-323-1422
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.miramarev.com
Like Steve Clunn, Lowell Simmons has been doing conversions here in Florida
for over 10 years and is excellent at it and very professional. The last I
heard from Lowell, he is available to take on a conversion project right
now, and I recommend him. I also recommend my good friend Steve Clunn, but
in all honesty, I also like to point out that while Steve's work is also
very good and solid, he does not always put the highest priority on the
aesthetics and cosmetic appearance aspects, unless the customer really
insists on it and gives Steve a lot of extra time on those things, but
rather Steve tends to concentrate more on just the functionality aspects of
the conversion. I also made this point in the Palm Beach Post article on
Steve's conversion business.
So I think the general point here is one of just trying to be as open,
honest, and transparent as possible; to make full disclosures about one's
business interests and even one's contributions to others' businesses, even
where there is no agreement or expectation of any financial return or
ownership interest; to try to maintain some professional ethics, use common
sense, and not use the non-profit FLEAA to crassly and blatantly promote
one's own EV business interests or those of any one particular EV business
over another.
Let me make one last point here, again by way of example, coming full circle
back to my non-profit services that I provide to FLEAA members with regard
to parts & service support for RAV4-EVs and their offboard inductive
chargers. There would be absolutely nothing wrong or inappropriate with me
setting up my own for-profit commercial business to do that and then even
informing everyone over the FLEAA list that I have done so and that my
RAV4-EV commercial services are available. I could very well do that. But
I have made a conscious, deliberate, *PERSONAL* decision not to do so and to
offer these services free of charge on a non-profit basis as a FLEAA member.
(Please note my emphasis on the word "PERSONAL" -- this was simply a
*personal* decision and not one dictated by FLEAA rules or ethics.) Having
done that, and not having set up a for-profit company to do so, I am
therefore identifying these non-profit, non-commercial RAV4-EV support
services primarily through my membership and association with the FLEAA.
The important point here is again, as I said above, just to remember and
keep straight which role and which hat one is wearing at any given time and
not to mix the two. If I want to identify a service as one that I am
providing as a "FLEAA member" to fellow FLEAA members, and therefore am
primarily identifying such service in association with the FLEAA, then in
keeping with the FLEAA's non-profit status, I'd better be darn sure that I
adhere to the letter and spirit of that non-profit status and be squeaky
clean about it.
I hope this helps to clarify the situation and the important point that you
have raised, Greg. And I'm glad that you did raise it, because I think this
is an issue that needs to be addressed and emphasized from time to time,
just to make sure that we all understand the role of the FLEAA and the
rules, limits, and bounds of its non-profit status.
By the way, all of this is just my own understanding and interpretation of
these rules, limits, and bounds. I don't claim to be the ultimate authority
or have the final word in speaking for the FLEAA on this subject. That
would ultimately be our President, Shawn Waggoner, who would speak for the
FLEAA on this. If anyone else has anything to add or any different
interpretations, I would welcome it as a valuable addition to this important
subject.
Thanks again, Greg, for weighing in with your contribution to this
discussion.
Best regards,
Charles Whalen
Florida EAA
Delray Beach, FL
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: Greg Sims
To: Charles Whalen ; FLEAA Mailing List
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 7:22 AM
Subject: Re: [FLEAA] BROWARD COUNTY NEW CHAMBER MEMBER DISCOUNT LIPTON
Hi
In response to Charles' email, I wanted to present a counter idea to how the
charter for FLEAA works. I'm not suggesting a change but just a different
point of view.
I appreciate the integrity of the members for not taking a markup or charge
for their time in working with other members. If those are the rule of the
group I think they should be followed. My thought is the I would really like
to get some help to convert a vehicle to electric but my time is limited. I
know how difficult it is to get help on someones free time, for instance I'm
working with a charity for girls in Kenya on a web site, free of charge
because I'm good friend with one of the founders and my connections with
Kenya. And I wouldn't feel comfortable asking for someones time, unless I
could provide some momentary or other way to help them. If there are
individuals who provide these these types of services, converting to
electric, I think it would be important to help them build their business.
Unfortunately, most of the ways to help a business is to do it financially,
we do live in a world that money makes things go around.
It seems to me,that to get the best help from the experts and make it a win
win situations for myself and the expert would be to cancel my membership
and see if I could hire these experts in planning and implementing a
conversion. I would feel more comfortable knowing I was not being a burden
on someones time (I have done the helping people with computer stuff most of
my life). I think it's important to help them to grow there business or
start one if they like doing this. If they want to take the money and donate
to the club or keep it to build there business or something else, it
wouldn't matter to me. It would allow me to sleep at night know I did the
right thing.
If I did cancel my membership, wouldn't mean I would stop donating money for
dues or for things like battery beach burnout or not going to meetings. I
would just be able to get started and know I would be able to get
assistance, if my time became an issue. For me right now time is my biggest
constraint.
I hope you don't mind hearing a different view point.
Greg
Charles Whalen wrote:
Hi Joseph and all,
There is nothing new about this. I have posted to the FLEAA on this subject
previously about these services and parts supplies & inventory. One
important thing I have mentioned in my previous posts on this subject but
did not mention in yesterday's post, which is worth pointing out, is that I
offer these parts and services as a FLEAA member, and in keeping with the
FLEAA's non-profit status, I do so without making any profit, without
charging any markup on the parts supplies and inventory, and without
charging anything for my time, services, and labor -- absolutely nothing!
(This is no different than, for instance, the National EAA, which offers,
through its Chairman Ron Freund's services, Avcon to 14-50 adaptor boxes, to
EAA members at the cost of materials, with no markup added and no
compensation to Ron for his time and labor in making up these boxes.) I
spent a good deal of my time servicing and troubleshooting a problem with
one South Florida-based RAV4-EV for a FLEAA member a few weeks ago, all on
my own time and without charge. It turned out that the problem was not with
the car but with the charger. The only immediate fix to get the car back on
the road again for its driver was for me to sell the owner a new inductive
charger from my inventory. The owner wanted to pay me more than I had paid
for the charger so that I could make something on it. I politely declined
his kind offer and insisted that I would only sell the charger at my cost
that I had paid for it, pointing out that I do this as a non-profit service
for FLEAA members, and that it is not my intention to make money off of
EVers.
Another point I would like to make is that in facilitating Prius plug-in
hybrid conversions with the government-certified A123/Hymotion kit, I
personally, the FLEAA as an organization, do not have any business or
financial relationship, investment, or interest in the companies involved in
that business. I/we simply provide information and referral services to
people in Florida who are interested in converting their Priuses to plug-in
hybrid. The A123/Hymotion kit is the only DOT/EPA/NHTSA certified kit that
is eligible for federal government rebates of up to $4,000, principally in
the form of federal tax credits, for individuals who convert their Priuses
to plug-in hybrids, under legislation that is currently pending in Congress.
My understanding is that the legislation, as it has been drafted, only
provides federal tax credits to plug-in hybrid conversion kits that have
been certified by the DOT, EPA, and NHTSA, and must be installed by
certified installers.
Charles Whalen
Florida EAA
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:25:11 -0400
From: "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [FLEAA] BROWARD COUNTY NEW CHAMBER MEMBER DISCOUNT LIPTON
TOYOTA]
To: "david starky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "FLEAA Mailing List"
<listserv@floridaeaa.org>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
I never knew the FLEAA (specifically Charles Whalen) had such supplies
or sources for the Rav4 EV.
"We have facilitated the conversion of a number of Priuses to plug-in
hybrids using the DOT/EPA/NHTSA-certified A123/Hymotion PHEV
kit both by individuals, including some of our Florida EAA members,
and commercial and government fleet operators in Florida, and are
continuing to do so."
Charles, have the A123 kits been government certified yet?
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