antonio -
in fairness, i never got an answer in the 1st round of
correspondence; you said the charango was different to
the vihuela de mano but never explained why or how.
be that as it may, in order to prove that "charango"
is merely a quechua name given to the vihuela de mano
i'll have to: (a) verify the existence of the San
Buenaventura book (b) and the Don Gonzalo de Guerrero
reference c) and convince you that the gentleman knew
what he saying when he called his "creepy crawly"
instrument a vihuela.
off hand i'd say that was impossible. even if i
convince the luthier i was in contact with earlier to
loan you his copy of the book, i don't think you would
permit this historic, documented but uncollaborated
statement to stand on its own.
this correspondence, sir, makes me appreciate just how
fickle the process of recorded of history can be.
amicably (abbastanza) yours - bill
--- Antonio Corona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> Once again .....
>
>
> --- bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > surely this is a case of putting the cart before
> the
> > horse.
>
> If the fact that the violeros knew what name to call
> the instruments they made, and designated them with
> such names in their own documents, implies putting a
> cart before a horse so be it; I fail to see the
> connection.
>
>
> > - precisely what changes were made to the vihuela
> de
> > mano that required it having a new name?
>
>
> I do not share the hypothesis that the charango
> derives from the vihuela, therefore, I don't believe
> I
> should have to provide an explanation for a theory
> I
> personally find mistaken.
>
>
> > - at what point do derivations - alternative
> > tunings,
> > decorative embellishments, different building
> > materials - necessitate this change?
>
>
> Same as above.
>
>
> > - do you suggest that at some point, luthiers in
> the
> > new world stopped making vihuela de manos; threw
> > away
> > their molds and drawing plans and started to make
> > charangos? when did this happen?
>
>
> I would never dare to suggest such a thing, in my
> view
> it is simply wrong because, as I said above, it
> would
> mean a direct connection between the vihuela and the
> charango, a connection I don't believe obtains.
>
>
> > based on what was said during the last go-around
> on
> > the subject, i suspect that the answer is "don't
> > know." if that's the case, i suggest that "don't
> > know" makes it equally plausible that a charango
> is
> > a
> > bona-fide vihuela de mano. in fact, its shape and
> > the
> > quote below make it more than plausible.
> >
> > - bill
> >
>
> Tbe shapes of the vihuela and the charango suggest
> precisely otherwise. The quote below needs to be
> verified. I've know of it for a long time: it
> appears
> in almost every other site that deals with the
> charango. However, I have not been able to find
> either
> the original edition of the said book, or a modern
> one, something that sounds suspicious bearing the
> fact
> that I live in Mexico, where the said book is
> purported to have been written. The date is also
> wrong: according to the facts provided in the said
> quote, the conquest of Yucatan would have been
> accomplished by 1512 (the alleged date), and would
> thus predate the conquest of Mexico. Hardly
> probable.
> I am tempted to consider this source as spurious
> until
> some proof of its veracity is produced.
>
> Another fact that needs to be taken into account
> when
> dealing with literary sources is that the
> nomenclature
> does not necessarily reflect a specific instrument.
> As
> an example, numerous sources from the seventeenth
> century mention a vihuela when the context makes it
> plain that they mean a guitar. There is a
> welll-known
> source from the fifteenth century, _Vision
> delectable
> de la filosofia_ that also mentions a vihuela while
> the woodcut beside the quote illustrates a harp. I
> could go on with this subject, save for the fact
> that
> I do not believe it is germane to the topic under
> consideration, especially since the "Historias de la
> conquista del Mayab" seems to be a fabrication.
>
> As a student my supervisor passed on to me an advice
> from Thurston Dart which all of us would do well to
> heed: "verify your references". I´m sorry, but the
> authority of a website without any other supporting
> evidence is not good enough for me.
>
>
> With best regards,
> Antonio
>
> >
> > - --- Antonio Corona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > No charangos (or cuatros or any other derivation
> > > whatsoever). And these deluded buggers surely
> knew
> > > how
> > > to name the instruments they made.
> > >
> > > Antonio
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- bill kilpatrick
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > --- Antonio Corona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > > > > Incidentally, the Spanish "Ordenanzas de
> > > > violeros",
> > > > > that is, the regulations of the guild of
> > > > > vihuela-makers (who also made lutes), first
> > > > > published
> > > > > in Seville in 1502, were reprinted verbatim
> > for
> > > > the
> > > > > guild of Mexican "violeros" in 1568. This
> must
> > > > > surely
> > > > > mean that instrument-making -and buying- was
> > > > > certainly
> > > > > flourishing at the time.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > any mention of the word "charango" or were the
> > > poor
> > > > deluded buggers still constructing their
> vihuela
> > > de
> > > > manos under the wrong name?
> > > >
> > > > what news of the vihuela society?
> > > >
> > > > - bill
> > > >
> > > > =====
> > > > "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the
> > shell
> > > of
> > > > a creepy crawly..." - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero
> > > > (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab"
> by
> > > Fra
> > > > Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to:
> > > >
> http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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=== message truncated ===
=====
"and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly..." - Don
Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Fra Joseph
of San Buenaventura. go to: http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
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