To whom it may concern:
Not meaning to be rude but due to the way this site is set up it is
sometimes impossible to determine whose message I may be responding to.
With that in mind I will share some of the things I know and some of the
things I think I know and perhaps guess at a couple of others.
As to the use of the LH thumb to stop strings. In order to do this it is
necessary to couch the neck in the palm of the left hand. If this was an
occasional event the musician was required to make this shift and then shift
back to the more raised fingers anchored thumb position. I find this hard
to swallow, as well as hard to accomplish. Much of what we know and what we
think we know is based on what works. That's the simple truth of the
matter. If one were to couch the neck, making position changes up and down
the neck becomes a real problem. In the case where the thumb placed in the
middle of the neck the thumb acts as a swivel allowing a quick and efficient
movement from one position to another with the least amount of effort.
I have found that most of my technical problems have arisen out of being
lazy and allowing my left hand to partially support the neck of the Lute
instead of being free to do only one thing; go from one not and one position
to another without the neck flopping around unsupported. The left hand
should not be an element of support.
Someone has also made the comparison that modern classical guitar technique
is probably better for the Lute. I'm sure I have this quote wrong, but here
is the old argument that newer techniques are probably better than older
techniques. Though there are some similarities the Lute is not a Guitar and
in many significant ways cannot be played well when played like a Guitar.
Of course the right hand debate surfaces here where not everyone can seem to
agree on thumb out or thumb in, but playing the strings with the right hand
does demand a different attack because of the doubled string, something not
necessary on the Guitar.
Another difference is the use of the fourth finger, or little finger. Most
Classical Guitarists do not make use of the fourth finger to the extent it
is used on the Lute. All one has to do is spend time with Milano's works to
understand this. The little finger is used in ways a Guitarist would not
dream of, or for the most part find him/her self in a position to have deal
with. I have found many instances where it is necessary to use the little
finger to reach all the way across the neck and finger notes on the sixth
course while working a passage on the trebles. One might say use the thumb.
OK---try fingering the fourth fret on the sixth course with the thumb and
play the first, second and third frets on the first, second or third course,
or finger a two or three note chord on the trebles. If you have a hand
flexible enough to do that then you don't need to do it at all.
For me it all boils down to the best way to get the best sound with the
least amount of effort.
Vance Wood.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "lute net" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 7:08 PM
Subject: Re: Antwort: left hand thumb to stop bass notes
> Dear Denys,
>
> >Dear Marion,
> I think it's probably possible to play the entire
> 6 course lute repertoire without ever resorting to
> using the left hand thumb to stop a note. I think too,
> that one could argue that a left hand technique
> for the lute closely based on modern classical guitar
> methodology is the most efficient way to play.
> From that perspective there is little point in
> speculating about what sixteenth century playing
> technique was like.
>
> +I agree with you.
>
> >A few years ago I began to question my preconceptions
> about lute playing.
>
> +I do this on a regular basis. Sometimes I increase my
> knowledge and understanding, but sometimes I get
> quite confused as no one is around from the 16th century
> to interpret what remains incompletely explained from the
> historical records. Sometimes the best we can do is
> offer logical explanations based on available evidence.
>
> >When you do that, all you have to go on is evidence from
> the past.
>
> +I agree, but sometimes it is difficult to know what the
> evidence is telling you or what the point of a picture or
> manuscript is. Even today people depict things in pictures
> about which they have only a shallow understanding.
> Consequently sometimes an object or a scene is not
> rendered accurately and someone from a later generation
> may think it means something that it was not intended to mean.
>
> >I have not made an exhaustive study of the 16c iconography,
> but I have seen a lot of paintings, drawings & woodcuts that
> show the player's left hand with the thumb visible above the neck.
> This suggests that a left hand technique different to that used
> on the modern guitar was in common use.
>
> +It may be necessary here to draw a distinction between
> common use for simple, elementry music and correct use for
> counterpoint and something that requires a different, more
> advanced technique. We cannot assume that everyone depicted
> in the paintings was an expert, but only that the person most
> probably was interested in playing the lute. Another idea, is
> that techniques evolve. The pictures that show the thumb
> above the neck may have come from a time before it was
> discovered that the thumb in the middle or below the middle
> of the neck offers considerable advantages. I am not sure about this
> second point and I would like to know the history of when the
> more common technique of today first was discovered and came
> into widespread usage. (Maybe someone on the list can comment
> on that.)
>
> >The references from Capirola and Ganassi mentioned in my
> earlier mailing support this. If left hand technique is varied, this
> has subtle effects on the sound of the music, particularly on
> articulation and phrasing.
>
> +And it has a profound effect on the ability of the lutenist to
> play counterpoint and even some chords. I have not seen the
> references but I hope that someone on the list who has seen
> them and perhaps has also seen other writings on this topic
> as well, can enlighten us about the suggest usage of the
> "left thumb over" technique, when it was introduced, who originally
> proposed it and what advantage (that I so far cannot see) it may
> have over other techniques.
>
> >So for me, the quest is to try to understand how lutenists thought
> and played in the sixteenth century. It's probably a very eccentric
> idea, and I raise it merely to challenge received wisdom.
>
> +I also would like to understand this. We should continue to
> question the way we are doing things, not only because of the
> desire to be historically correct, but also because we want to
> play music (written in any time period) that sounds good to us
> today.
>
> >It's worth remembering though that before Michael Schaffer
> began the reintroduction of right hand "thumb under" technique
> 30 years ago, right hand guitar technique was considered
> normal for lute playing.
>
> +Which supports my point about the evolution of techniques.
> This represents an evolution that has come full circle.
>
> Thanks for sharing your ideas,
> Marion
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Denys
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:37 PM
> Subject: Re: Antwort: left hand thumb to stop bass notes
>
>
> I cannot imagine why anyone playing a six-course instrument with
> a narrow neck would find the need to use the thumb to stop any
> course (usually the lowest) anytime. Maybe I'm just confused or
> maybe I just know how to avoid it. Can any one enlighten me on this?
> The fact that is possible does not prove that it is the most efficient
> way to play. I see guitarists do it today with folk music but I never
> could figure out why they need to. Maybe they saw someone else do it
> or they saw it in picture.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Denys Stephens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Feb 14, 2005 12:20 PM
> To: lute net <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Subject: Re: Antwort: left hand thumb to stop bass notes
>
> Dear Vance,
> Forgive me for challenging you on this, but it's my understanding
> that the lute typically in use for the greater part of the 16th century
> was a 6 course instrument, and that the few surviving original necks
> are narrow (e.g. Gerle& Magno Dieffopruchar). Using left hand thumb
> stopping of basses on such a lute does not preclude playing polyphonic
> music, it just calls for dexterity in the use of the left hand. In fact,
one
> of the
> prime examples of pictorial evidence of what we are talking
> about is the well known supposed portrait of Francesco da Milano, which
> could give us cause to reappraise our ideas of what his playing
> technique was actually like. We can be sure that he habitually played
> a 6 course lute (and viola da mano!) because that's what the music
> is written for. It's hard to prove much beyond that. I would not
> argue myself that stopping basses with the thumb was anything
> more than an occasional technique, only used when needed.
> But it was certainly possible on the 6 course lute, and the evidence
> pointing towards it's use is far too compelling in my opinion to ignore.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Denys
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "lute list" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 6:47 PM
> Subject: Re: Antwort: left hand thumb to stop bass notes
>
>
> In reality; unless you have only a six course Lute with a narrow neck I
> don't see how using the thumb to stop anything (but the mobility of the
> other four fingers) is going to be possible unless your thumb is very
long,
> your neck very narrow and you are not playing counterpoint.
>
> Vance Wood.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 5:14 AM
> Subject: Antwort: left hand thumb to stop bass notes
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi!
> >
> > I don't think it makes much sense stopping strings with the LH thumb on
> the
> > lute. Most old tutors suggest a position of the left hand similar to
> modern
> > guitar technique (with the left hand thumb in the middle - or below - of
> > the back of the neck).
> >
> > I don't think the lute player in the painting is in a "real" playing
> > situation. Try to sit down, hold the lute and then watch over your right
> > shoulder and see what happens, especially when turing your body to the
> > right like the lute player in the painting. Also his left elbow is
> lifted -
> > not a very relaxed position! Maybe therefor he needs his thumb to hold
> > himself in a sitting position to avoid plumping onto Venus?
> >
> > The guitar players of the early 19th century had an ambivalent poition
> > towards this approach. Carulli is clearly favoring the use of the left
> hand
> > thumb as it would widen the possibilities. Many sources (most notably
> > Mertz) have special signs for the use of the left hand thumb ("^").
> >
> > Generally speaking I think using the left hand thumb for fingering will
> > lead to a rather instable left hand position which may help fingering
the
> > one or other nasty chord but on the other hand will require much more
> > attention on the general position of the left hand.
> > This would apply on the early romantic guitars with the more narrow neck
> > less than to modern classical guitars.
> >
> > Best wishes
> > Thomas
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> am 14.02.2005 00:27:41
> >
> > An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > Kopie:
> >
> > Thema: left hand thumb to stop bass notes
> >
> > This is a lute-related question.
> >
> > But first: I asked a question recently on the Google classical guitar
> > message board about the use of the left hand thumb to fret bass strings
in
> > 19th Century Russian guitar music. I got some very interesting responses
> > but not a definitive answer.
> >
> > What puzzles me about this Russian guitar music is that sometimes the LH
> > thumb frets the bass notes (clearly marked with a special sign) and
> > sometimes the LH fingers fret the bass notes (indicated indirectly).
Often
> > itâ?Ts not made clear whether it is thumb or fingers. Sometimes, in the
> same
> > passage of bass notes, one bass note is to be played with the LH thumb
and
> > the very next with an LH finger.
> >
> > Playing with the LH thumb requires a completely different LH wrist
> position
> > from â?~normalâ?T â?" like you are strangling the neck of the
instrument.
> >
> > Before I started trying to play this music I just assumed that playing
> with
> > LH thumb on some bass notes would allow the bass note to be sustained
> below
> > the melody. But very often this just isnâ?Tt the case. So Iâ?Tm
pondering
> the
> > musical or technical purpose of LH thumb techniqueâ?¦
> >
> > Now I think I very dimly remember some discussion of LH thumb technique
> > (for stopping bass notes) in some lute music â?" presumably early lute
> music:
> > lutes without the extra bass strings that would preclude this technique.
> >
> > And then today I was killing some time in Cambridge at the Fitzwilliam
and
> > came across this painting by Titian:
> >
> >
>
http://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/pharos/collection_pages/italy_pages/109/TXT_SE-109.html
> >
> >
> > (the first pic)
> >
> > Evidently itâ?Ts an earlier version of a painting that is now in the Met
> in
> > New York.(Google: Titian, Venus, Lute player, Cupid) Either version will
> > do. The lutenist clearly has the thumb in the â?~strangling the neckâ?T
> > position and nowhere near the â?~normalâ?T position that both guitarists
> and
> > lutenists adopt today.
> >
> > (My wife was a bit baffled by my focus of interest in the lutenistâ?Ts
> thumb
> > in this painting but bought me the postcard nonetheless.)
> >
> > So: is there any evidence of using the thumb to fret bass notes in lute
> > music?
> > If so, do any lutenists today use this technique? And then, what is the
> > musical or technical reason for it?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------
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> > visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> >
> >
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