Hi Benjamin, thanks for the reference. I must have been blind - I've read through this page several time but somehow didn't find the term "double-strings".
Baron bought his lute shortly after he got into the duty of the prussian court which was in 1737, 10 years after he published the passage you have quoted. So we cannot know what Weiss played at 1727, just what Baron played. What we can assume is that Baron played a theorbo like that of Weiss *after* 1737. But still we do not know for sure how it was tuned. Best wishes Thomas Am Mittwoch, 9. März 2005 15:56 schrieb Benjamin Narvey: > Baron describes the stringing of the German theorbo thus, on p. 110 of > Douglas Alton Smith's translation of the Untersuchung: > > "The theorbo's tuning was the same as the old lute tuning: > g'd'afcGFEDCB'(orB flat) A' G'E'D' (Baron actually seems to be describing > here an archlute, but whatever). Today, however, it commonly has the new > tuning, WHICH OUR OWN LUTE STILL HAS (caps mine), because it was too much > trouble for the lutenist to have to suddenly rethink everything when he > picked up the old theorbo. Today the theorboes also have double courses, > except for the basses, which are stretched freely from the bridge to the > second peg box." > > Regarding what Weiss played, of course we cannot know what he played all > the time. However, doubtless what Baron describes is the theorbo he > himself played, which we know he bought from Weiss. So at least what we > can know is that Weiss played a theorbo as described by Baron at some > point, and without evidence to the contrary, continued to do so. > > Also, some of what has been going round on the lutenet about continuo in d- > minor made me choke on my cheerios this morning! D-minor is an EXCELLENT > key for continuo, for the following reasons: > > a. The tuning adapts equally well to sharp and flat keys - unlike theorbo > or archlute. > b. You can play VERY full harmonies - with an easy reach - so too > dissonances, etc. > c. The tuning is so logical (unlike the re-entrant theorbo): open barre > for minor, add one finger for major. These 2 shapes are transposable in > every key. It is also these same shapes for all inversions, you just > change the strings you pluck. > d. Stays in tune better than archlutes, much louder, with similar range. > > e. et cetera! > > I use this tuning as much as I can! > > Best, > > Benjamin > > > > > > In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > writes: > > Thanks for the better translations from Baron's text. > > > > So you think the fact that Baron bought a teorbo from Weiss proves that > > Weiss's instrument was tuned in d-minor? > > I doubt also I admit that it's what's most probable. I just would like > > the lute community not to accept as fact what is derivational information > > based on many assumptions. > > > > I haven't found a reference for the double-strings on the theorbo of > > Baron. Could you please help me to find it? > > Surviving instruments of german provinience have double strings. I > > checked > > in > > > the meantime. But this a different string of evidence and does not > > necessarily mean Baron used it. > > > > best wishes > > Thomas > > > > Am Mittwoch, 9. März 2005 13:07 schrieb Benjamin Narvey: > > > Yes, regarding German continuo, perhaps the best informed modern > > > discussion of this is Tim Burris's PhD dissertation "Lute and Theorbo > > > in Vocal music in 18th Century Dresden: A Performance Practice Study" > > > available from UMI. The below is largely informed by that. > > > > > > It is absolutely clear that the German therobo was in d-minor tuning. > > > Baron makes this clear in the Untersuchung. He says it is tuned in the > > > "neue Lauten- Stimmung", i.e., the accords nouveaux: d-minor. If this > > > could be doubted, there are other confirming statements. On the same > > > page, Baron writes that this tuning is used because "it would make > > > things too inconvenient if a lutenist a to mentally switch to the old > > > theorbo tuning whenever he played it on that instrument." So unless we > > > can doubt that Baron was referring to the d- minor lute when he says > > > "lutenist", that the d-minor lute was tuned in d- minor, and that it > > > was the lute commonly used in Germany in this time, we must accept that > > > the German therobo was in d-minor. Case closed. > > > > > > (An important thing to note, however, is that the new German theorbo > > > was not used everywhere in Germanic lands, and that it existed side by > > > side with the old Italian tuning as well. In Vienna, for instance, > > > Conti was still playing with Italian tuning.) > > > > > > Baron is clear as to the tuning of his theorbo. It is in d-minor, > > > strung with single basses, with fretted courses doubled (whether this > > > was true of the top course is unclear) with a top string of D. In his > > > "Essay on the Notational System of the Lute and Theorbo" Baron writes: > > > > > > "...the lute requires a chanterelle; but on the theorbo, which begins > > > a third lower (calculatd from the first string, i.e. not on F but on > > > D)... the chanterelle is omitted because it would break due to the long > > > mensure." > > > > > > Furthermore, what Baron says speaks for Weiss too, since when Baron was > > > appointed to the court he was immediately granted leave to go buy a > > > theorbo; instead of having one made, he bought Weiss's theorbo from > > > Weiss himself. I got this from the "New" New Grove's article on Baron. > > > This is current scholarship. > > > > > > And yet, although it is quite clear what was most commonly meant by a > > > "German theorbo", and that what Baron and Weiss played can be known, > > > this instrument was never a set genre like the Italian theorbo. (Some) > > > German players simply began adapting their Italian theorboes into > > > d-minor after about 1720. Since Italian theorboes range from 75-100 > > > cm., perhaps some smaller German theorboes did exist with the top F? > > > Single or double strings? They doubtless both existed. Although Baron > > > makes clear what the norm was - at least or him and Weiss - I'm sure if > > > you showed up in Dresden for a gig in 1740 with any variant of the > > > above - or an Italian theorbo, or archlute - you wouldn't get any funny > > > looks. > > > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Benjamin > > > > > > In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > writes: > > > > Hi Markus, > > > > > > > > where does Baron tell us the tuning of Weiss theorbo? > > > > In "Untersuchung" he only speaks in general terms about a new tuning > > > > similar to the "new" baroque lute tuning of the instrument. > > > > He gives the old tuning as a renaissance-tuning not based on A as we > > > > would expect for a theorbo but in G. > > > > In his later tractatus from 1756 he says a "singing" top course of > > > > the lute would be needed but not on the theorbo which would start on > > > > third deeper > > > > > > (and > > > > > > > having one or two courses more in the basses) than the lute and the > > > > top course would not retain because of it's length. > > > > That would mean the top course is d. > > > > I haven't found any reference to S.L.Weiss here. > > > > > > > > Do you mean with the written out Continuo parts the ones in Dresden > > > > accompanying some pieces by Hasse? This would suggest a usual d-Minor > > > > lute. I would wonder if an experienced (continuo) player like Weiss > > > > would have written down his continuo parts. The context of the source > > > > also suggests it could be done for a pupil who doesn't own a suitable > > > > continuo instrument and wnats to accompany these songs. > > > > > > > > Best wishes > > > > Thomas > > > > > > > > Am Mittwoch, 9. März 2005 10:23 schrieb Markus Lutz: > > > > > Hello Michael, > > > > > which instrument Weiss meant I'm not at all sure , but it is very > > > > > probable that it was similar to the d minor tuning if not equal. > > > > > When Weiss writes that the instrument is similar to the theorbo > > > > > (size, force etc.) but in a different tuning, he possibly means > > > > > that it has the new tuning. The "old" theorbos were tuned in > > > > > Renaissance lute tuning, as is stated in many notes even in late > > > > > baroque. And also Baron tells us that Weiss used the new tuning on > > > > > the theorbo. One suggestion is, that this theorbo was tuned like a > > > > > d minor lute without the first chantarelle. Therefore it's bass > > > > > range would have been down to F. As far as I know, there are even > > > > > some notated theorbo voices written by Weiss, that show that. > > > > > > > > > > best > > > > > Markus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:47:16 -0700, Michael Thames wrote: > > > > > > > > > > MT> This is quite a miss leeding statement, your mixing apples > > > > > and oranges, MT> concerning what Weiss did. Weiss said himself > > > > > that he invented a new MT> instrument the same size as a therobo, > > > > > but it had a different tuning. MT> Clearly not a 13 course lute. > > > > > MT> Michael Thames > > > > > MT> www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Thomas Schall > > > > Niederhofheimer Weg 3 > > > > D-65843 Sulzbach > > > > 06196/74519 > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > -- > > Thomas Schall > > Niederhofheimer Weg 3 > > D-65843 Sulzbach > > 06196/74519 > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
