Dear Vance, I can see that you are looking for what might have been an interesting analogy here, but the situation with Greek columns is not quite the same as the issue with lutes. As I understand it classical columns do have bilateral symetery but their shape from top to bottom is slightly convex because parallel sided columns are subject to the optical illusion of curving inwards over their length. This is a well known phenomenon in architecture - the curvature to counteract it is known as entasis.
Quite a few lute makers in the 1970's made the assumption that lute bodies were totally symeterical and followed a pattern where the backs had a semi-circular cross section. Those instruments, to my mind, never looked or felt quite right. The more recent lutes that faithfully copy the subtleties of the surviving originals are IMHO much more convincing. Much of Renaissance art followed the principle of the imitation of nature and the apparent symetery of nature is rarely what it seems. I was once in a class taught by a psychologist who had made a study of the human face. He had photographed a number of people's faces square to the camera and then cut the photos in half vertically along the line of symetery. He then made mirror images of each side and made new "faces" by matching each side with its true mirror image. The result was astonishing - very often the right side and its mirror image looked like a totally different person to the other pair. My guess is that Renaissance artists and craftsmen knew a lot more about this sort of thing than we do today. Best wishes, Denys ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 4:40 PM Subject: Re: symm/asymm & perfect/imperfect > This post reminded me of something I thought might be pertinent and knowing > no other post upon which to hang it I chose this one. You mentioned the > Ancients and this brought to memory something I saw demonstrated on a > documentary concerning the Parthenon in Greece. It seems this building is > not symmetrical mathematically, some of the elements are designed out of > align so that they appear as behind symmetrical when viewed from below, > specifically the taper and shape of the columns. I wish I could remember > the exact details but it is there none the less. The point here is that the > use of asymmetry was to create the illusion of symmetry. How this relates to > the discussion on Lutes is of little more importance than to demonstrate > that the use of asymmetry is not uncommon even in places where you would > consider symmetry to be important. > > Vance Wood. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "guy_and_liz Smith" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "LUTELIST" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Manolo Laguillo" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 10:22 AM > Subject: Re: symm/asymm & perfect/imperfect > > > > A friend of mine who works at Sandia Labs tried to explain Quantum Physics > > to me over a couple bottles of wine one evening, unfortunately if I can't > > apply it in my daily life, it goes in one ear, and out the other. > > Concerning perfection, I guess it's a state of mind, as Dr. Emoto has > > documented, ones thoughts can have an influence on ones environment. > > Although, the Ancients have know this for eons. > > One can perceive a lute as symmetrical, however, after a couple bottles > > of wine, or beer in Jon's case, it begins to take on a non symmetrical > > shape, along with everything else. The exception to this rule, is found > in > > historical lutes, which appear non symmetrical, prior to the consumption > of > > your favorite intoxicant, then afterwards actually appears perfectly > > symmetrical. > > > > Concerning the lute I was speaking more about the physical shape of > the > > belly, and not the actual sound it makes. > > You can apply the concept of imperfection ( Wabe Sabe) to many things, > > but not the conception of musical instruments. The concept is always > > perfect, but man's execution of it is imperfect. > > Sometimes I think lutes, guitars are like people. The really good > > looking ones (people) are rather shallow sounding, and the not so perfect > > ones, are more interesting to listen to. > > This is my second, naturally occurring law as applied to musical > > instruments. The first being the rule of relative perception. > > Michael Thames > > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "guy_and_liz Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "LUTELIST" > > <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Manolo Laguillo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 4:13 PM > > Subject: Re: symm/asymm & perfect/imperfect > > > > > > > Michael, > > > > > > I thought I'd covered my views on this topic, but I have to add my > > comment. > > > > > > > Is it wrong for humans to try to achieve perfect symmetry? It seems > > > nature is trying. > > > > > > Nature is trying, very trying (I hope you know that English trope). Can > we > > > know perfection? No. Can we aspire to it? Yes. Perfection is a goal, > even > > in > > > nature. Einstein rejected Bohr's thoughts on Quanta, saying God doesn't > > play > > > dice. (the quote may be aprochryphal). Bringing it back to the lute, > your > > > ear is the best tuning device. Even the paired courses have a diffence > in > > > tonality. Nothing is perfect, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't aspire > to > > > perfection. > > > > > > Best, Jon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > >
