Stewart McCoy wrote: > Dante Rosati has suggested that to play dedillo the right-hand thumb > should support the index finger, as if there were a plectrum in > between.
FWD: From: "G.R. Crona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subject: Re: Narvaez and 4c technique Date: 15 February 2002 00:27 Hi Dante! I have another one. Hold p+i together, but play with the left part of your thumb nail. You get a harder and faster attack because of the thumb nail usually being thicker and harder, at least by me... Goeran ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dante Rosati" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "James A Stimson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Rosemary Hodgson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Lute Net" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Simon Martyn - Ellis & Judith Caughie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: 14. februar 2002 18:21 >Subject: RE: Narvaez and 4c technique > > > Another possibility is the dedillo, or index-finger stroke. > > Might this not > > be easier with the thumb out to help balance the weight of the rest of the > > hand? > > My theory about dedillo is that it is an extension of plectrum technique. > Those of us who have played anything with a plectrum know that, if you want > to play that way and do not have a pick, you simply hold your thumb and > index finger together as if there was a pick there, and use the tip of the > index finger as a plectrum. As long as the thumb is not required to play > another course, it is best held against the index finger. So dedillo is > neither "thumb in " nor "thumb out" but rather "thumb in the middle". > > Dante Stewart wrote: > The alternative action would be to keep the wrist and arm still, and > move the index finger back and forth, as I suspect modern sitar > players do. James Stimson's reference to sitars is particularly > apposite here. I would like to hear from a sitar player, but at the > moment I doubt whether it is possible to achieve enough speed and > strength for super-fast single-note scalic flourishes, using just > the finger muscles alone. Correct! I also own and sometimes play a "Himen Sen" Burma teak sitar. Sitar players use a "mizrab" on the index finger, that is a metal plectrum a little like a thimble. The fast runs are played on the uppermost treble strings or chikaris (the ones closest to the players head) and are usually played downwards, when playing the fast final part of a raga for strength, but may also be played alternating up-down. The motion involves playing with a *very* relaxed wrist, from whence the force/strength comes. This wrist movement is the alpha & omega of correct sitar playing! Thus alternating one pluck on a melody string and three on the chikari course (double string) as you may have seen Ravi Shankar or Vilayat Khan do. BTW R.S's book "My music, my life" contains a short but concisive manual at the end with perspicuous elementary explanations. So this technique can not be transplanted to western chordophone playing at it is *totally* different, not least the incorporation of "meend" or pulling of the melody string which is so central to sitar playing. The right hand movement is therefore like a constant circular motion. B.R. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Lute Net" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 7:26 PM Subject: Dedillo > Dear Garry, > > You have made an interesting observation. I would like to know more > about how the chap in the Mexican restaurant used his finger. For > example, was he playing thumb-inside or thumb-outside? > > Dante Rosati has suggested that to play dedillo the right-hand thumb > should support the index finger, as if there were a plectrum in > between. I once talked to Jacob Heringman about how he went about > playing dedillo on his Milan CD. I can't remember now exactly what > he said, but I do remember that he said he didn't support the index > finger with his thumb, as Dante describes. The index finger can move > in only one plane, so if it is supported by the thumb, it won't > move. Instead the wrist and/or arm moves. I think this technique > would work best with a thumb-inside position. As a thumb-inside man > myself, I have often thought that what Dante describes is the way to > do it. However, I have had my doubts, especially as thumb-inside was > described by at least one author as a foreign technique. Although it > is always possible to change one's hand position mid-piece, I > suspect that the vihuelists who played dedillo were probably > thumb-outsiders. > > The alternative action would be to keep the wrist and arm still, and > move the index finger back and forth, as I suspect modern sitar > players do. James Stimson's reference to sitars is particularly > apposite here. I would like to hear from a sitar player, but at the > moment I doubt whether it is possible to achieve enough speed and > strength for super-fast single-note scalic flourishes, using just > the finger muscles alone. > > The sound quality of dedillo is, I think, unsatisfactory, because of > the difference in sound between strings plucked by the nail and the > flesh of the finger. If the vihuelists also found it unsatisfactory, > why did they play dedillo? The only compensatory factor I can think > of is speed. In other words, dedillo enables you to play faster than > alternating two digits, whether thumb and index, or middle and > index. > > I often tutor on playing days run by the Lute Society. There are > renaissance-minded thumb-insiders, baroque-minded thumb-outsiders, > all with their little finger on the soundboard, and there is always > a number > of classical guitarists, who play thumb-outside without touching the > soundboard. My experience is that even the best thumb-outsiders > (including the guitarists) cannot play fast enough, and they > struggle with consort lute parts, and with divisions like those of > John Johnson. (Pace Julien Bream, who achieved a pretty good speed > with his guitar technique,) thumb-insiders tend to cope much better > with strings of fast notes. I just wonder if the vihuelists resorted > to dedillo, simply because their thumb-outside technique prevented > them from getting enough speed for those really flashy runs. Foreign > thumb-insiders didn't need dedillo, because they could already play > fast enough with their thumb-inside technique. > > Best wishes, > > Stewart McCoy. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Garry Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "'Rob MacKillop'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 10:12 PM > Subject: RE: Dedillo > > >> Interesting topic! >> >> So you want to know how to play dedillo? >:) >> >> If you live in the U.S., just go to a good Mexican restaurant with > a good >> Mariachi band. >> >> I was in a local restaurant a few months ago and the duo who was > serenading the >> patrons had stopped at our table. I observed that the one player > was executing >> all sorts of scale type divisions while using only his index > finger. He was very >> good. He apparently teaches as well. I briefly thought about a few > lessons for >> dedillo, but I think I would just end up playing poorly both thumb > under and >> dedillo. >> >> Ironically, I asked the duo if they could play "Guardame las > Vacas" and received >> blank stares. My Spanish pronunciation isn't that bad!!!! >> >> At any rate, dedillo apparently is a thriving technique among > certain factions >> of the Mariachi crowd. >> >> I don't know how viable looking up Mariachi groups in the UK would > be. >> >> On another ( my current favorite ) topic: Does anyone have tempo > suggestions for >> the Paez "Bacas" ? I know the current fashion is to play at light > speed, but >> there are some nice, delicate cadences in there that might get > lost! >> >> And lastly, I know that "Guardame las Vacas" is a Romanesca, but > does anyone >> know if there actually was a folk tune of that name? I know I've > asked this over >> the years, but I've never gotten a definitive answer. Did it > originally have >> lyrics? >> >> Garry >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rob MacKillop [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 4:49 PM >> To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu >> Subject: Dedillo >> >> Martyn sent me this: >> >> To get back to the Vihuela, - do you know anyone who plays dedillo > (I think >> that's the term)? ie running passages played with index alone: > I've tried, >> >> and failed - dismally. >> >> Thanks and rgds >> >> Martyn >> >> I sympathise with Martyn. Dedillo can sound awful, and I have to > say I try >> it every once in a while but always with the same results. Not to > my liking. >> I think it works best if the nail is a little bit long. I have > seen a few >> folk guitar players use the technique, but it sounds pretty lousy > to my >> ears, although it doesn't 'jump out' as it does when I use it. I > guess that >> is because the tone they produce generally is pretty rough. I > imagine there >> was a great variety amongst players in the 16th century regarding > tone >> production. Most of us arrive at vihuela via lute or classical > guitar, where >> we have spent years trying to 'improve' our tone. Dedillo seems > like a step >> backwards. But maybe I just can't do it properly! >> >> Anyone out there had success with this technique? >> >> Rob To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
