A handy place to look is the antiquarian deallers on the Karlsruehe listing of libraries. I saw four or five copies of Le Luth II. And some of Le Luth I. Note there are two editions of I, the original and a revised "corrected" edition. I've never looked carefully to see the difference.
http://www.ubka.uni-karlsruhe.de/hylib/en/kvk.html ajn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute net" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 8:57 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dalza > Dear Manolo, > Thanks for that very helpful thought. That set > of papers has been on my 'ought to have' list for > years. Whilst some publications and items of > interest to lute players are reasonably easy to get > hold of, I often find that certain things require > extraordinary fortitude and persistence to succeed > in getting them. I tried the CNRS website today just > to see if I could find anything about this book with > no success - so Bernd's comments about CNRS don't > surprise me in the least. But I would like to read > that > paper of Paul O'Dette's, so I will try an alternative > route to get a copy. > > Thanks & best wishes, > > Denys > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Manolo Laguillo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "LUTELIST" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 9:09 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dalza > > > Hi, Denys, Bernd, all, > > do you know the contribution by Paul O'Dette to the > 1980 Colloquium 'La > lute et sa musique', published by the french CNRS? > Title: Quelques > observations sur l'execution de la musique de danse de > Dalza. > > I could suggest sending photocopies, but that would a > pity, because I > have the book, and it is worth reading it complete. > It is not expensive, and packed with information > (articles by Diana > Poulton, A. Bailes, D.A. Smith, M. Vaccaro, J. > Jacquot, Tim Crawford, > Monique Rollin, A.J. Ness, D. Benkö, Michael Lowe, > Howard M. Brown, > among others). > You can order it directly, through the web page of the > Centre Nationale > de la Recherche Scientifique (Paris). > > Saludos from Barcelona, > > Manolo Laguillo > > > > > Denys Stephens wrote: > >>Dear Bernd, >>Thanks! I think your explanation is very probably >>the correct one. As you say, much depends on which >>interpretation of the rules one chooses. Your version, >>I think, corresponds to what Ornithoparchus / Dowland >>would have thought of as the 'modern' interpretation, >>i.e. the C with a stroke through it plus a numeral 3 >>alongside >>it means a 'diminution' of measure lenghts to a third >>of >>their previous lengths. In this case, by changing time >>from >>triple to duple and reducing the duration of a bar >>from three >>minims to one minim, there is a perceived doubling in >>the >>speed of the piece. QUESTION: Doesn't the underlying >>tactus stay the same? And is this why decorative >>running >>passages became known as 'diminutions'? >> >>We really need to study the use of time indications in >>Dalza >>and the other Petrucci lute books to get a better >>understanding >>of this. For example, taking the Pavana alla Venetiana >>beginning >>on f. 9r: The saltarello beginning on f.9v has a 'C3' >>as its time signature >>which corresponds to perfect time. Dalza / Petrucci >>give the >>piece three minims per bar using the special >>triple-time flags. The piva >>which follows, beginning on f.10v, has the 'C with a >>stroke through it and >>numeral 3' sign, and here the bar lengths are halved >>to three crotchets per >>bar, again using the triple time flags. So the rhythm >>flags suggest a >>halving >>of note values, but the 'time signature' suggests that >>the measure length >>in the piva should be one third of that in the >>saltarello? I'm not sure! >>Contemporary dance practice could probably throw some >>light on this, >>although the interpretation of dance manuals is >>perhaps just as fraught as >>lute tablature. >> >>I spent quite a lot of time studying some aspects of >>Dalza a few years >>ago and was amazed that despite the book having been >>available in >>facsimile since 1980, and Dalza being perhaps the most >>popular lute >>composer of his era, the book is still full of >>unsolved mysteries. >> >>Best wishes, >> >>Denys >> >> >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Bernd Haegemann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>To: "lute net" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Denys >>Stephens" >><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 5:26 PM >>Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dalza >> >> >> >> >>>Dear Denys & all, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>this to Dalza's recercar on f. 7, the piece starts >>>>in triple time >>>>with each measure having a value of a semibreve. The >>>>first three >>>>measures indeed have three minims each. >>>> >>>> >>>yes >>> >>> >>> >>>>Over the page on f.7v the time changes with the sign >>>>of a broken >>>>circle with a vertical line through it and a numeral >>>>3 set against it. >>>>The broken circle indicates imperfect (i.e. duple) >>>>time. The tables >>>>in the Micrologus suggest that the vertical line >>>>indicates a >>>> >>>> >>'diminution' >> >> >>>>and the numeral 3 indicates that the diminution is >>>>of a factor of 3. >>>>The definition of a diminution is a little >>>>confusing: apparently 'the >>>>ancients' >>>>considered it to consist of reducing the length of a >>>>measure by a third, >>>>whilst >>>>'the moderns' consider it to be reducing the length >>>>of a measure by a >>>> >>>> >>half. >> >> >>>>But it >>>>goes on to say that a number placed against the >>>>diminution sign >>>> >>>> >>indicates >> >> >>>>the value of the diminution. >>>> >>>> >>>I am still a bit confused about the signs, but I also >>>went to the >>>bookshelves and found out that there is an "implicit >>>confusion", dating >>>back to the times themselves when the signs were >>>used - with different >>> >>> >>meanings. >> >> >>>But the diminutio, indicated by the vertical line >>>through the C -symbol, >>>is for sure. (Like this, it would be diminutio >>>dupla.) If there follows >>> >>> >>only ONE number (not >> >> >>>a fraction like 3/1 or >>>1/2 ) it indicates the proportion of the diminuition. >>>In this case we have >>> >>> >>a >> >> >>>C and a three, which means that the music change to >>>imperfect tempus and >>>minor prolatio AND the there is a diminuition by the >>>factor of... well, 3. >>>(There are also examples where this 3 stands for the >>>proportio >>> >>> >>sesquialtera (3/2).) >> >> >>>So, I suggest that we have a proportio of 3 new >>>semibreves corresponding >>> >>> >>to >> >> >>>one of the old ones. In the Dalza case 3 new >>>"measures" take the same time >>>as one of the old, triple ones.This would mean double >>>tempo, wouldn't it. >>> >>>?! Next try, please? :-) >>>best wishes >>>Bernd >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>To get on or off this list see list information at >>>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >>> >>> >>>-- >>>No virus found in this incoming message. >>>Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>>Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.13.9/490 - >>>Release Date: 20/10/2006 >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.13.9/490 - > Release Date: 20/10/2006 > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.13.9/490 - > Release Date: 20/10/2006 > > >
