I think you've misinterpreted what I was trying to say; I'm sorry if I was at all unclear. If you carefully read what I wrote, you'll note that I am also talking about (and advocating) playing close to the bridge: the point I was trying to make was that with the little finger placed actually touching, on or even behind the bridge, then with thumb-under one is virtually plucking the bridge itself (try plucking thumb-under with the little finger behind the bridge) - it is this that I referred to when speaking about a harsh etc sound. However, with thumb-over one the plucking position is slightly further away (closer in fact to the 'lute' /'theorbo' stop of English harpsichords) and thus one avoids, as you have found, such unpleastness. In short, I am suggesting that we ought to be plucking close to the bridge but with thumb-over and that this may have been the principal reason for the change from thumb-under. M
Rob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Martyn, I don't always agree that playing close to the bridge gives 'an unpleasant harsh sound' to use your words. With lower-tension gut strings, the sound can be quite warm as well as clear. Please listen to the chaconne I recorded just two days after getting my new 11c - the performance isn't great, but the sound is OK, at least to my ears. I won't be offended at all if you think it harsh and unpleasant: http://www.rmguitar.info/Maler.htm - scroll to near the bottom of the page, just above the photo of me grinning like an idiot. I should mention that I have since moved my little finger a cm or two towards the rose, but not as close as the position on said photograph. I should also add that I have never played thumb-in, as I find it impossible. Rob www.rmguitar.info -----Original Message----- From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 07 January 2008 13:52 To: Martin Eastwell; Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge Perhaps this below has this been covered already?: Clearly as you say, thumb-under does not, in itself, restrict ability to pluck a low bass course. However, if the hand is plucking very close to the bridge (ie little finger touching the bridge, or on it or even behind it), as so much evidence suggests was the common, if not quite general, hand position from the early decades of the 17thC, then with thumb-under the fingers are plucking almost at the bridge - producing not just a clear brilliant sound that I presume was more to the current taste, but an unpleasant harsh sound (not to mention other difficulties). The English harpsichord 'theorbo' or 'lute'stop (the row of jacks closest to the bridge) was, presumably, thought to imitate this effect and is also very brilliant but not harsh. With thumb-over, forearm resting higher up the instrument and the little finger still resting on (or touching) the bridge, the fingers move a little away from the bridge and a stronger stroke is possible without the thumb-under harshness. In short, perhaps thumb-over was more to do with the practicalities of wishing to play close to the bridge rather than anything else like being able to reach the basses............ Martyn Martin Eastwell wrote: Dear Martin, Bruno and All I thought I'd add my bit here, as I have played both TI and TO for many years. I can't see why the addition of extra bass courses should drive a change to TO technique. My experience is that with the fingers lying "along" the strings in TI, you don't need to stretch the thumb out so sharply to reach, say, course 10. It actually seems easier to me-try it out! The reasons given in Stobeus for preferring TO are to do with a preference for a brighter, louder, and clearer tone colour. I sometimes feel that modern players have a problem with sharing this preference! In TO, the fingers strike closer to the bridge, relative to the thumb. There is also a tendency for the fingers on TI to travel along the strings as the stroke is made, warming up the sound by suppressing higher harmonics. While mentioning Stobeus, it is worth remembering that he specifically points out that Dowland started as a TI player, but does not make the same point about the other players he lists (Jakob Reys, Laurencini, and Huwet). I've mentioned before that the reference to Dowland and Huwet as being "in Germania", suggests a fairly early date for Dowland's change of technique. Martin's point about larger lutes and heavier necks makes sense-however, Dowland would probably have been playing a lute with only 7 courses at this point. Something that has not been mentioned so far, is that most of the really impressive modern TI players, incorporate quite a bit of RH arm or hand movement into the stroke. This is something not (as far as I know), mentioned in early sources, though I feel that it is quite likely to have been used by the best players. Modern beginners find it very hard indeed to get this going effectively. For TO, if my memory is correct, Besard actually warns against moving the right arm. Martin E On 7/1/08 03:47, "Bruno Correia" wrote: > Excellent post Martin! > > That's exactly how I see this subject, It makes a lot of sense to change the > technique if you have a bigger instrument with more basses. We can also > argue that the musical texture had also changed in favour of harmony with > emphasis in the "Style Brise" instead of strict counterpoint. Then if we > start to arpegiate chords and add slurs in place of the thumb index > alternation, we'll end at the baroque lute. > > Changes in musical style require changes in technique which in turn asks > a "better" instrument to play this music... > > Regards. > > > 2008/1/6, Martin Shepherd : >> >> Dear Ed and All, >> >> You raise an interesting question. I can't claim to have the answer, >> but I think it may be wrong to assume a drastic change from the old >> style to the new. Besard (instructions translated by Dowland) says you >> should play thumb-out, but if your thumb is short you can play >> thumb-in. My guess is that the change from TI to TO reflects changes in >> the number of courses, and consequently the way the thumb is used and >> the way the lute is held. >> >> With a 6c lute the neck is not especially heavy and it feels comfortable >> to play with the neck more or less horizontal. With more courses and a >> heavier neck it feels more comfortable to hold the neck higher and body >> lower, so instead of the arm coming round the end of the lute and the >> fingers being almost parallel to the strings (TI), the arm comes over >> the top of the lute and the fingers are almost at right-angles to the >> strings (TO). >> >> With more courses, and a less contrapuntal/equal-voiced kind of music, >> the thumb increasingly specializes in playing the basses, which may free >> it to adopt a different position - more "stretched out", as Besard >> says. Another influence might be that with more courses, the course >> spacing at the bridge gets closer, and less suited to TI. >> >> Not everybody went out and bought a 10c lute in 1610, and changed their >> technique overnight. In fact, looking at paintings of 7c and 8c lutes >> yesterday I found that they were mostly Dutch 17th C - obviously people >> continued to play lutes with fewer courses for many years, and used the >> lute to accompany singing as they had always done, rather than play >> heroic solo music requiring dozens of strings. >> >> Oh, and none of this has anything to do with overspun strings, which >> weren't invented until 40 years after Dowland's death and even then (for >> various reasons which I think we are beginning to understand) not used >> on lutes. >> >> Best to All, >> >> Martin >> >> vance wood wrote: >> >>> Here is another thought: Maybe Dowland created the change in >>> technique? If not him who and from where? Do we know the answer to >>> that question? >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Durbrow" >>> >>> To: "LuteNet list" >>> Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 9:52 AM >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge? >>> >>> >>>> Playing the devil's advocate here, I've always found it hard to >>>> believe the best lute player in the world (some must have thought >>>> so), Dowland, would change his technique suddenly. Maybe the sources >>>> got it wrong or were purposefully misleading? What would be his >>>> motivation to change? >>>> >>>> Just a sec, let me get my flame shield. >>>> >>>> On Dec 17, 2007, at 7:19 PM, Martin Eastwell wrote: >>>> >>>>> I would tend to assume that a player like Dowland would not go off >>>>> on a >>>>> European tour having just made a major technical change. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Ed Durbrow >>>> Saitama, Japan >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>>> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1210 - Release Date: >>>> 1/5/2008 11:46 AM >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > -- --------------------------------- Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good -- --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. --
