Le 5 juin 08 =E0 02:31, damian dlugolecki a ecrit : > Anthony, Quite right, you weren't actually saying that the dyed > colors had anything to do with > loading. Dying a string is a fairly simple matter, that would not > require any complex chemistry > like that of dying leather. And if I'm not mistaken, the loaded > strings actually have copper filings > blended into the finished string, so if it existed I don't think it > would be related to color dying technique. Unless I am mistaken in my interpretation, it does seem that this loading of leather with oxides was a sub-part of the dyeing trade.
"Several ancient recipes could have been easily employed for `loading' gut (see, for instance, Giovanventura Rossetti's recipes for dyeing fabrics, silk and leather in his 'Plichto de l'arte de tentori che insegna tenger pani, telle, banbasi et sede si per larthe magiore come per la comune', Venezia, 1568). Some of these describe how to incorporate cinnabar (red mercury sulphide) or lithargyrum (yellow lead oxide) into wax, leather, silk, wood, hair, inks &c.: indeed, only a short step away from gut." MP It was called dyeing, but it is possible that this was carried out by very specialized dyeing ateliers, rather than the general dyeing trade. I suppose today, if I wanted to dye my strings green, I could pop into any shop and find a suitable substance, but if you are doing this in mass, and it seems that huge numbers of strings were exported from Italy. When I heard the figure, I was astounded. Unfortunately, I just heard it and can not quote the figures. In that case, I would think that there would have to be commerce between string makers and dye people. If that is the case, they would surely have discussed their trade. There could even have been marriage between families who met in this way. I am just imagining. This sort of socio-economic history of these trades, as you suggest could be very interesting. Although their practices were very secretive, which is a hindrance, usually evidence is indirect. Of course, even if there had not been any commerce at all between the dyeing trade and the gut trade, some gut maker could have become aware of such practices as loading leather, and tried it; but it is just a little more likely that this might happen, if such a relation existed. At the same time, you are right, it is not because there was a potential for this to happen that it actually did. There are often missed opportunities, just as there are happy chance encounters of completely independant thinkers. > I think it would be helpful to know more about how stringmaking > guilds operated, how they defined their > areas of specialization. I know Mimmo has done some work in this > area, but it would be really valuable > to have a better understanding how this worked. Taking a broad > view of the commercial aspects is perhaps > worthwhile. According to Dowland there were two major markets in > Leipzig and Frankfurt at two times > the year, Easter and Michaelmas which falls in late September. To > these fairs gathered merchants from all > over Europe who purchased quantities of strings, presumably from > representatives of the stringmakers who > worked in major stringmaking centers in Italy, Germany and France. > They would return to their own countries and would then travel to > different local fairs or markets where the retail customer could > purchase the strings > for his lute or violin. Fernand Braudel describes the mechanisms > of trade in the second volume of his series, Civilization and > Capitalism 15th-18th Century. Did certains centers activity > specialize in only one type of string, so that for example a Venice > string was very highly twisted, whereas Romans had more moderate > torsions? This does seem to be the case. But I feel that to leap > to the conclusion that each area made some radically different > type of string like our modern mannerist expirements, is going to far. I agree, I do think this would be an extremely interesting area of research, and I do think Mimmo and Daniela, in their spare time (where do they find spare time?) are looking into this. > This stringmaking tradition was not > seriously disrupted until WWI which was cataclysmic. But until > that time there is a direct line to the 17th century. > In 1910, the best strings were still believed to come from Italy. I am not sure whether the line was completely direct and unbroken. There may have been some sort of upheaval that effected the centre of the guilds (similar to what happened in Fussen), perhaps isolating the "outposts" from the centre. I am not sure about that, but if there waere such an upheaval, you could have some skills lost, while others might be kept on locally in the other smaller centres that have not been so effected. > And there were no loaded or roped strings > that I have been able to discover, just gut strings with various > degrees of torsion. I am not sure that proves that none existed. Obvioulsy, if we found some in an old case, that would presumably prove that they did (or if some old man was still found with the knowledeg today), but we do know that demi-file were made at one period (Mest lute, and texts), but I do believe they were stopped probably sometime after full wirewounds caught on, and that particular part of the tradition was broken (I could be wrong, but that was my impression). However, Charles Besnaiou showed me a painting which definitely does seem to show a gut rope on a Gamba or cello, I don't remember which (he also sent it to the French lute list, so all the French members of our list should be able to confirm that). I also think there is mention of them somewhere in an early text (Mimmo quotes that text, but I don't recall where, right now). There was also mention of them in a text on artillery catapults (A. Ramelli's "Livres des divereses et artificieuses. machines), of a type of rope "faicte en la fa=E7on des grosses cordes des basse-contres des gros violons. So it is said here, explicitly that these ropes were used on bass bowed instruments. A close up of the "corde" in question in the engraving does seem to show a rope. Charles recognizes this rope, as being of the type of his stretchy toroidal ropes. We can understand why, as these ropes must stand sudden shocks. A lutist who had also been a merchant navy ship's Captain told me that this rope type was also used for mooring ships, when the weather is rough, and he mentioned that he had seen similar ones on South American harps as the lowest bass string.. > > And what about measurment? There was no measuring system in place > until the late 19th century. All > artisan activity such as violin and lute making was accomplished > through the use of proportion as a tool > of measurment. How does the luthier or lute player determine which > strings are the right size? I don't see > Meresenne's method of wrapping a string around a cylinder several > times and counting the turns to be > a reliable or practical tool. From some sources we know they talk > about the number of 'guts' which > could mean a whole casing or one or another side of a split > casing. So there are many mysteries in > the ancient string art that we would like to solve, and I think > that aside from practical everyday experience, > we need to look more closely at the inner workings of commerce. I do agree with you,here, although I fear not many will follow us in that direction. I hope I am wrong, but I think most musicians just want good strings, and are not that interested even in how they are made. (I say this because Charles Besnainou has tried to organize string making classes at the SFL, and I think three lutists turned up. I have to admit that I did not go, but not because it didn't interest me. I find it hard enough to tie my shoe laces, without nails, and feared I would look a complete fool.) > So that the socio-economic history of the string trade may not grab the attention of many. Personally, I do think it is very very important, as are any scraps of information we can find about how strings were made in the past. Perhaps, we could also study the remaining tradition of gut string making in other areas than Europe. There are such areas where a trade still exists, although it is very much endangered by synthetic strings. It could be interesting to see the string types they use. Regards Anthony > > DD > > From: "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "damian dlugolecki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 4:12 PM > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Fw: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/ > loaded/Demi-file > > > Damian > Well let me say, what I actually said again, in slightly different > words, but meaning exactly the same thing. > The more we see that string makers were playing round with dyes, for > whatever reason, including the one you put forward (which is > different from that of Martin), the more likely it is that they would > have come accross the dyeing process of leather, which is in fact a > loading process. I did not say that thay had done so, just that it > would be more likely, simply because the recipes for dyeing leather, > using metal oxides, were being applied in the region at the centre of > which you could find this powerful string trade guild. There is no > jump to any conclusion in what I have -just said, that could be > considered as stretching any evidence. > > If two similar types of activity are taking place in the same area, > there is simply more likelihood that they will meet in some way, not > certainty, just a greater degree of likelihood. > That is all I said, nothing more or less. > Regards > Anthony > > > Le 4 juin 08 =E0 22:47, damian dlugolecki a ecrit : > >> >> Please visit my web site at www.damianstrings.com >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "damian dlugolecki" >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 1:01 PM >> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-file >> >> >>> >>> I had forgotten about the Dowland quote which indicates that >>> 'some' strings, not 'all kinds' as Martin infers >>> were colored. Since strings were known only by their place of >>> manufacture, i.e., Romans, Pistoia, Bologna, etc. >>> perhaps some enterprising maker added dye to the bath to >>> distinguish his strings from those of others, or, >>> to distinguish one type of torsion from another. But to leap to >>> the conclusion that they were loading >>> the strings in some way is stretching the evidence to say the least. >>> >>> >>> From: "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> To: "Martin Shepherd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; >>> <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 2:46 AM >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-file >>> >>> >>> >>> Le 4 juin 08 =E0 10:40, Martin Shepherd a ecrit : >>> >>>> Dear All, >>>> >>>> Dowland (VLL, 1610, sig.Dv.) says: >>>> >>>> "Some strings there are which are coloured, out of which choose >>>> the lightest colours, viz. among the Greene choose the Sea- >>>> water, of Red the Carnation, and of Blew the Watchet." >>>> >>>> At this point he is talking about strings in general, not just >>>> bass strings, so it seems that all kinds of strings were made >>>> in different colours. I assume he recommends the lightest >>>> colours because a dark colour would make it harder to assess >>>> the quality of the string, but he doesn't say so explicitly. >>> >>> Martin >>> I have a brown Venice which is just as good as the lighter yellow >>> one. I actually prefer it for the appearance, but not the sound. It >>> is true that colour is not a proof alone of anything. Indeed, >>> loading >>> can also result in various colours, but it sounds unlikely that this >>> is exactly what Dowland is speaking about here. >>> Nevertheless, this does seem to imply that string makers were >>> experimenting in dyeing strings, and if that is so it is even more >>> likely that they would have thought of using recipes designed, by >>> the >>> dyeing trade, for leathers, and these certainly did include dyeing >>> with oxides (a form of loading), even if it might not have been >>> called so. >>> >>> As I said previously, the leather dyeing trade in Italy (where these >>> recipes were definitely applied) was situated in the same region >>> from >>> where the centre of the powerful string guild was situated (whose >>> tentacles were to spread to Munich, to Spain, to Lyons and even >>> Paris). >>> If the string makers were trying out the various effects of dyeing >>> strings, it seems probable that they would have tried these out. If >>> they liked the effect they would have commercialized them. >>> That does not necessarily mean that they did. >>> >>> However, Mace, in his time, does say that Pistoys dyed red, are the >>> best. He could just be partial to the colour (I do like the >>> appearance of those red strings), but it seems more likely that the >>> effect the dyeing process had on these strings was what made him >>> prefer them. As red dye on leather, was at that time brought >>> about by >>> a metal salt, it is at least plausible that an oxide was involved. >>> >>> I do agree that we can't just choose to give importance to Mace, and >>> just to ignore Dowland, just because the one seems to confirm >>> what we >>> are looking for; but there may not be such a contradiction, if we >>> consider that there was a period of intense experimentation in >>> colouring processes on strings, but that the results initially, were >>> not all particularly significant. Confronted with the variable >>> results of these experiments, Dowland might have adopted the >>> practical method of choice that you are suggesting, for the reason >>> you suggest. >>> >>> However, string colour is not the main argument in favour of the >>> existence of loading, although, it is perhaps the most >>> attractive, as >>> you can hope to actually see the trace of them in a painting, >>> especially if they all happen to be bass register strings. It is, >>> indeed, striking when you see the colour of a loaded string so like >>> that of a string in a painting. However, a more conclusive proof, >>> other than finding a "fossilized" loaded string, would perhaps be >>> finding details about a stock of red oxide, in the inventory of a >>> string maker's atelier. >>> Anthony >>> >>>> Best wishes, >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >>> >> >> > > > --
