Dear Jean-Marie, Many thanks for this interesting passage. It confirms what I was saying, i.e. that keyboard instruments were tuned with unequal semitones, that the lute and viol were tuned in equal temperament, and that fretted instruments were regarded as inferior, because they were in equal temperament.
There is however, a problem when fretted instruments and keyboard instruments are played together. In your passage, the solution of tuning keyboard instruments to equal temperament is rejected as unsatisfactory. It should be the other way round, i.e. fretted instruments tuning to the keyboard. A lute or viol cannot be fretted 100% in a meantone temperament, but one can get pretty close, give or take a few dodgy enharmonics. I assume Denis' ivory frets are what some of us call tastini now. The question I would like answering, is how were viols fretted, when they played consort music to the organ. On page 242 of _Musick's Monument_, Thomas Mace says that the main job of an organ is to help keep the viols in tune: "Because the Organ stands us in stead of a Holding, Uniting-Constant-Friend; and is as a Touch-stone, to try the certainty of All Things; especially the Well-keeping the Instruments in Tune, &c." If the viols and organ were in different temperaments, the last thing an equally-tempered viol player would want, is an unequally tempered organ telling him he was out of tune all the time. I conclude from Mace's remark, that viols playing in consort with an organ, would have adjusted their frets as close as they could to match the temperament of the organ. In this context, I continue my speculation that baroque lutes (in all their various tunings) were not played with keyboard instruments, because there were too many problems getting the instruments in tune with each other. I am aware that Weiss and Baron composed music for flute and lute, but they are very much the exception. A baroque flute is not in equal temperament, but a good player can bend notes a little to alter the pitch, something a keyboard player cannot do. Best wishes, Stewart. -----Original Message----- From: Jean-Marie Poirier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 June 2008 12:53 To: lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: Meantone Dear Stewart and all, I am not a great enthusiast of meantone temperament as a result of my readings of concordant theoretical sources which do not seem to advocate this particular tuning, and of my experience in consort playing. Of course, I do use it when requested to, no problem, but not so often after all. And I would like to have your opinion about this passage from Jean Denis, "Traité de l'accord de l'espinette", Paris : Ballard, 1601 (I know it's in French, but IMO it's much better to approach this sort of text in its original language), one among several of the same period on the same subject : "Les Theoriciens trouvent trois sortes de tons, et trois sortes de semi-tons, sçavoir ton majeur, ton mineur, et ton superflu; et aussi trois sortes de semi-tons, semi-ton majeur, semi-ton mineur, et semi-ton moyen, ce qui n'est point en usage, sçavoir le ton mineur, et le semi-ton moyen; et pour faire le ton mineur, il est composé d'un semi-ton moyen et d'un semi-ton mineur plus foible que le ton majeur: Mais dans la pratique de la Musique, et en nostre accord Harmonique, il ne [-p.12-] se trouve point de ton mineur, ny de semiton moyen: la difference des deux accords est, qu'en l'accord qu'on nous presente, il n'y a ny semi-ton majeur ny semi-ton mineur, mais le semi-ton moyen et le ton majeur pareils aux nostres; car pour faire le semi-ton moyen, on baisse le semi-ton majeur, et ce faisant on hausse le mineur, et par ce moyen tous les semi-tons sont égaux. Or estant en l'assemblée de fort honnestes gens, et entendant cet accord que je trouvay fort mauuais et fort rude à l'oreille, leur disant mon sentiment, et que personne ne le pouvoit trouver bon, ils me respondirent que ie n'y estois pas accoustumé. Et je leurs dis, que si on leur presentoit un festin de viandes amères et de mauvais goust, et qu'on leur donnast du vinaigre à boire, dont ils se pourroient plaindre avec raison: si on leur disoit qu'ils n'y sont pas accoustumez, ce ne seroit pas une bonne raison et bien recevable, je voulus sçavoir à quoy cet accord estoit bon; celuy qui avoit accordé l'Espinette me dit qu'il estoit bon pour en jouër, et détonner de semi-ton en semi-ton, et que tous les accords se trouvoient bons par tout, et qu'il s'accordoit mieux que le nostre avec le Luth et la Viole. Je luy dis qu'il avoit mauvaise raison de vouloir gaster le bon et parfait accord pour l'accommoder à des Instruments imparfaits, et qu'il falloit plustost chercher la perfection du Luth et de la Viole, et trouver le moyen de faire que les semi-tons fussent majeurs et mineurs, comme nous les avons sur l'Espinette, ce qui ne se peut faire avec les touches des cordes dont on touche les Luths, pource qu'il faudroit qu'elles fussent faites en pieds de mousches; ce qui se peut faire par le moyen des touches d'yvoire, que lon peut mettre par le compas et par la proportion du Monochorde, et par ce moyen on accordera le Luth et la Viole, avec l'Espinnette, dans l'accord [-p.13-] musical et harmonique..." In other words, it looks as if : keyboard intruments = meantone temperamen ; fretted instruments (lutes and viols) = equal temperament it seems... All the best, Jean-Marie ======= 18-06-2008 11:40:45 ======= > >Dear Anthony, > >In writing "close to equal temperament", I was deliberately a little >vague, because I have the frets on the baroque lute and guitar more or >less equally spaced, but I haven't measured anything exactly. I use a >tuning box and my ear. I think that's what they usually did in the past, >but without the box. > >Best wishes, > >Stewart. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: 18 June 2008 10:29 >To: Stewart McCoy >Subject: Re: [LUTE] New Baroque lute/Meantone > >Stewart > Could you make your "close to equal temperament" a little more >precise. >Perhaps that is not possible if you do it entirely by ear. >Anthony > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. >Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 18-06-2008 Nˆ ¶‰è®‡ß¶¬–+-±ç¥ŠËbú+™«b¢v†Ûiÿü0ÁË j»f¢ëayÛ¿Á·?–ë^iÙ¢Ÿø§uìa
