Dear Mathias, and AllWhat you say below (about 6th comma being incompatible with French Baroque ) is entirely convincing, and indeed, Benjamin Narvey (musicologist, specializing in the area of French Baroque music), who I met yesterday, told me exactly the same thing, and said he would probably want to put my lute back to ET before playing. (as Martin Shepherd also explained " it does seem to be more of a nuisance having the first fret high (Gb rather than F#) because the problem is not only on the fourth course but on the first as well. So playing a D major chord with the third at the top (on the first fret, first course) can be an uncomfortable experience)." I can only say that B. made very beautiful music flow from my lute, and he commented that for whatever reason, and he couldn't understand why, 6th comma seemed to be working on this lute.
Benjamin played a "programme" of French to German Baroque on it. The only real change he thought I should make, was to lower the pitch from 415 to 392, to have slightly thicker trebles. I entirely agree with this, and that was actually what I had ordered originally from Stephen, but I forgot to make this clear at the time he strung the lute. I know several French French Baroque players, who use synthetics and yet who still prefer 392, so it is not just to save gut trebles, although that would be useful. Indeed, the following day, I could hear that treble had gone false, and I think that was why Benjamin had not found the treble on my lute entirely convincing (the day before, a visiting French musician had found the treble was the best thing about tit, that and the pegs).
However, Benjamin was entirely convinced by the loaded strings; he thought they were working wonderfully. Nevertheless, if you do try them, be patient, as Stephen G. was not particularly impressed during the three days he had my lute just after having strung it. They have now been on the lute for about a week, and have really begun to bloom.
I will put some photos of Benjamin trying my lute and comparing it with his Martin Haycock, shortly, on Ning Lute.
The French Baroque lutist (and lute collector), who tried my lute before Benjamin, always uses equal temperament, even for Renaissance music. He was also surprised to find nothing wrong with the 6th comma. I am not saying that it was ideal (as we did not try ET), but at least for these two very different musicians they did not feel there was anything unacceptably wrong. Both lutists said how wonderful the peg action was, and remarked that at last they actually began enjoying tuning.
At first, the French lutist was not all that impressed by the loaded strings (he is not a gut user), but after playing a while he seemed to realize how clearly they were allowing the other voices to express themselves. He adapted very quickly to them, and did not have the sort of problem you would usually associate with someone going from wirewounds to gut basses. He finally left saying they were good, but that with his 32 lutes, he was certainly not going to change over from wirewounds.
Nevertheless, I think if a wirewound user is thinking about using gut basses, then they should consider trying the new loaded strings: they are not far from the thickness of a wirewound, and another advantage is that, once they have stabilized, they do not seem to suffer so much from the usual fluctuations due to humidity, perhaps because of the copper "cladding". However, for some one already used to pure gut basses, they will have to decide for themselves which sound-type they prefer, as presumably they will have come to terms with the thickness of pure gut basses, or use very low tension, or some type of bass extended lute to get round that problem.
Personally, I wouldn't part with them. If they were quite good on my 7c lute, I feel they are really excellent on my 11c. Now, I must be cautious (I dare say that as we found the 6 comma somehow acceptable on my Baroque lute, you may judge us all "cloth eared" anyway). Also, I repeat, please do be patient, if you try them. Wait at least a week to allow them time to come fully up to tension, and to thin-out, and harden up. Initially they are a little soft and silk string like. This however disappears, and you end up with a very dark but Venice type sound. So of course, if you don't like the Venice sound, preferring the very focussed taut projection of a high-twist over the good high frequence harmonic presence in a Venice (as a number of lutists on our list have recently told me they do), then these loaded strings may not be your particular cup of tea. Indeed, I stress this, because just like tea or coffee, we become used to the particular string-type, its qualities and defects, if we use them regularly (even wirewounds), we do learn to ignore their failings, while we cling desperately to their qualities. Your particular playing style, and even choice of lute may have developed directly in relation to the string type you are used to, and this will mean that my personal experience, along with the few people who have tried these loaded strings on my lute, does not prove anything at all for your own preferences. There are many string types to choose from, and the more lute and string "tastings" we do, the greater our sensitivity should become to the possible nuances in our music; so while I do suggest you should try the loaded strings, if you have the chance, I am not saying that they are the only possible solution. One interesting thing about Baroque music, is the variety of ways by which players, string, and lute, makers find to get round the set of contradictory needs of our instrument of choice, and the difference in tonal shades that this can give us (beyond any issue of historic correctness).
However, just one area where I do feel these strings seem to win over other gut basses that I have tried, including the previous loaded, is that their thinness along with their trueness, make the usual "intonation" problems between basses and octaves, and trebles, almost completely disappear. Perhaps, this explains why the 6th comma "dischords" were judged acceptable. Perhaps the overall in tuness just won the day.
In short (throwing all caution aside) and imagining that these loaded strings were not actually at all historical*, but that somehow Sire Charles Mouton could be given the chance of trying a set on his small "Maler/Desmoulins" lute, then my "gut feeling" is that he would be giving a long sigh of relief, and satisfaction, that at last his short string length lute was really working.
Anthony(*but I will return to the question of historicity, later in another message, so as not to overload you with this question).
Le 18 juin 08 à 23:36, Mathias Rösel a écrit :
Dear Anthony, I'm afraid I veiled what I actually meant to say, so much that it has vanished behind all that British politeness. Let me put it straight in the usual German rumbling way: There is no such thing like meantone fretting on the baroque lute.With your 1st fret high, F sharp (1st and 4th courses) can only be wrong and howling. With your 2nd fret low, G (again, 1st and 4th courses) willbe alright with E flat in the bass, but in an E minor chord it is horrible, simply wrong.If I were in your place, I'd save time and good spirits, and shift thosefrets into their respective proper place. They probably slipped during shipment. Mathias "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:Matthias That was initially the question I asked to the list. Stephen set it up in 6th comma by ear from his tuner box. I just didn't have time to look at the relevant tuning options, and used VT. It may be quite wrong, but it does sound extremely sweet. I have to say, I am very surprised that the 70cms does not seem to be any bother, the neck just seems so well made and organic. It is lovely to the touch, although it looks quite thick, it just doesn't matter. Oh and the pegs are just bliss which is just as well when a lute is strung in gut. The sound is, at least for the moment, of the reserved type. A friend who has a huge collection of lutes came round, with a Durvie 11c. It was strung with wirewounds and synthetics, and it easilly trounced the SG from from the point of view of decibels, but I thought the Gottlieb had it on the floor from the clariry and rhetorical point of view. It seems to talk quietly to you, in such a convincing soothing voice. Not perhaps for a large hall, more for the bed chamber. I see the French Baroque benefitting from such subtle shades. The Durvie was all Italian exuberance. I don't have much base from which to judge the sound of an 11c strung in gut. I have heard them on recordings, but only rarely in public. My best reference is Benjamin Narvey's Martin Haycock. He will be coming over soon, and we will be able to compare. I think probably the Haycock will project more (synthetic strung however), but I wouldn't like to predict anything else. All I can say, is that the sound, the balance and the touch, seems very hypnotic to me. The soundboard is clearly a fine hard piece of timber with mild bear claw markings. However, all this does depend on individual taste. If you try loaded strings, as I am doing, do not judge them, at least for a week. it does take some time for them to come up to stability, and during that time the remain a little soft in sound. Then either, you adapt to the strings, or they adapt to you. I have them on my Renaissance lute too, now, and I find they impart a free and easy sound on the other strings. On the other hand, I am sure you are aware that it does take some time to get used to any string type, and my ears are already very much atuned to gut. Some synthetics users may feel they lose a little punch. Personally, I just feel they allow the other strings to sing. For example the lutist who came round, initially, just found them faulty, but as he got used to them, his attitude changed slightly, without saying he was going to change over. (He has been using wirewounds for 50 years), he said, oh I see, you don't need to keep damping them, mhmmm? He was very impressed by the overall sound, while not considering it as better than his, he did end by saying that I should definitely think about ordering another lute from SG. Best wishes Anthony Le 18 juin 08 à 22:02, Jean-Marie Poirier a écrit : Le 18 juin 08 à 22:40, Mathias Rösel a écrit :Congratulations for this beautiful new baby then.May I second the congrats. And I can see that your 1st and 2nd frets have been shifted toward what on the renaissance lute is mean tone fretting. I wonder how you tune it and what it sounds like. Mathiasbut here is a link to those images: http://tinyurl.com/4zmwbl A friend who is a lute player and lute collector came round, he has a good number of lutes to jusdeg from. He thought the "lutherie" was superb, and the sound excellent, and very articulate,if a little more reserved than his most "outspoken" Matthias Durvielute; but his lute is in synthetics and wirewounds, mine in plain gut and loaded, so the comparison is not easy.He played a few pieces on both, and while his Durvie had more power and sustain, it was almost too much sustain, for certain pieces. Mylute seemed more reserved, but spoke into the ear, and the message seemed somehow with more depth and less flash, in short the message more poetic.This visiting luthist said his lute was exuberant and Italian, minemore French. I know Benjamin's Martin Haycock, which I like a lot, and which is also very vibrant, so I will have another chance for a comparison in a few days.However, each lute maker has his idea of what type of sound he wantsto acheive (He/she). Martin H; has told me that he is looking for projection, and he does achieve that. I think Stephen is looking for something else, but he hasn't given me what that might be in a "nut-shell". I do think the variety that comes form lute makers striving fordifferent aims, and string makers also, gives us a very large soundpalette to choose from. I just think that lutists should spend more time lute and string tasting, Choosing the most suitable instrument and strings should be considered as an extension of the lutist's technique, I think. I can say that, I need to extend my technique, by any means at my disposal. Regards AnthonyPS This lutist always plays with equal temp., but he didn't find anyproblem with the 6th comma fretting and VT or VY tuning. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti- virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte.= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 18-06-2008-- Viele Grüße Mathias Rösel http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com http://www.myspace.com/mathiasroesel http://de.geocities.com/mathiasroesel
