Dear Rainer & All: There has ever been a tendency on the part of historians and musicologists to attribute anonymous somethings to a known someone. The anonymous trebles attributed to John Johnson do contain elements that bear some resemblance to Johnson's bag of tricks, but this probably has to do with the phenomenon of imitating a good player who was hot stuff at the time. Take the trebles in the Marsh ms. Some are in fact attributed to Johnson but many are the work of an inventive scribe who knew Johnson's style inside and out through the process of writing them down. This same scribe is responsible for other pieces in the ms. that could or should be attributed to Johnson. The 'passingmeasues pavan' (fm) on page 130 is just like Johnson's, using the same devices almost in the same order, but just not quite up to snuff. The anonymous 'Dump philli' on page 426 that people continue to misattribute to Philip van Wilder uses exactly the same devices as found in several other pieces in the book, including the rambling 'Dump' on page 280. I have spent a good deal of time with van Wilder's vocal music and can safely say that he had as much to do with 'Dump philli' as Josquin had to do with 'Pegaramsey'. I think we know a little more about the value of the work of anonymous scribes and lutenists than we did 30 years ago. It's probably OK to play trebles that were not written by John Johnson. No lives will be lost. Best wishes, Ron Andrico www.mignarda.com > Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 13:33:36 +0100 > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > From: rspringaus...@tee.toshiba.de > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Green Sleeves > > I assume all these attributions are based on Nordstrom's article. > > The problems is that almost all trebles with any attribution in the source are by Johnson. > > From memory: > > There is one by Cutting. > There is one by Ferrabosco I. > There is one (totally different style) by Danyel. > > There are several (real and sort of) treble and ground duets by Robinson (switching parts every strain). Totally different style. > > Hence the question is to whom do you want to attribute treble and ground duets? > > > > Best wishes, > > Rainer aus dem Spring > > > IT & Business Solutions Division > > > > > Tel.: +49 211-5296-355 > Fax.: +49 211-5296-405 > SMTP: rspringaus...@tee.toshiba.de > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Doc Rossi [mailto:ro...@cetrapublishing.com] > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 12:41 PM > To: Lute Net > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Green Sleeves > > Anone with further information could reply to Brad directly. Thanks in > advance. > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Brad McEwen <[1]mill_r...@yahoo.com> > Date: January 22, 2009 9:07:28 PM CEST > To: Doc Rossi <[2]ro...@cetrapublishing.com> > Subject: Re: Fwd: [LUTE] Re: Green Sleeves > Reply-To: [3]mill_r...@yahoo.com > > Doc: > > Perhaps you could forward this to the lute group as well. > > I would invite anyone who can help me with this to contact me directly. > > I am basing my belief that Johnson wrote a duet for lutes on the sleeve > notes of an LP by Jakob Lindberg and Paul O-Dette called English Lute > Duets from about 1984. > > On the back cover of the LP (and CD booklet), it is attributed to > Johnson, but in the sleeve notes, they say ""it is possible that > Sellingers Round and Greensleeves were also written by Johnson.They > (the lute duets) date from the same decade as Johnson's duets and their > basic compositional style, as well as the idiomatic use of the lute, > seem very similar to the known duets of Johnson.". > > They don't state which MS this lute duet comes from! > > The same basic version is used on a CD by Estampie entitled Unde the > Greenwood Tree. This time this is for solo lute and, again, the source > is not stated!!! > > The same basic version was later used by William Cobbold and arranged > for four voices. > > I just want to know if the MS that this version comes from could be as > old or older than the Wm Ballet version, which is the only one that > most people are aware of. > > Does anyone know Jakob Lindberg or Paul O'Dette? Could we ask them? > Would they remember? > > Brad > > --- On Tue, 1/20/09, Doc Rossi <[4]ro...@cetrapublishing.com> wrote: > > From: Doc Rossi <[5]ro...@cetrapublishing.com> > Subject: Fwd: [LUTE] Re: Green Sleeves > To: "Brad McEwen" <[6]mill_r...@yahoo.com> > Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2009, 1:47 PM > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <[7]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr> > Date: January 20, 2009 10:43:47 PM CEST > To: "lute" <[8]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Green Sleeves > > Oooops, correction : I meant the lute duet in the Folger "Dowland" ms > (Ms 1610.1) fDEG 5 and not the Pickering... It's getting late here in > France ! Time to get some sleep ;-) ! > Jean-Marie > ======= 20-01-2009 22:28:12 ======= > > Oh, I forgot the little lute duet in the Pickering Lute Book... It > is not attributed to Johnson either and the date of this manuscript > is around 1615, if I remember well. > > Jean-Marie > > ======= 20-01-2009 16:53:03 ======= > > A friend of mine is looking at different versions of Green Sleeves > and > > has asked me if I can help with dating early versions. I can't, but > > maybe someone here can. He had thought that the William Ballet Lute > > MS version was the earliest written one. It was compiled between > > 1595-1610. Does John Johnson's version for two lutes predate > Ballet? > > Thanks, > > Doc Rossi > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------- > > Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus > mail. > > Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > [10]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr > > [11]http://poirierjm.free.fr > > 20-01-2009 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------- > > Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus > mail. > > Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > [12]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr > [13]http://poirierjm.free.fr > 20-01-2009 > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:mill_r...@yahoo.com > 2. mailto:ro...@cetrapublishing.com > 3. mailto:mill_r...@yahoo.com > 4. mailto:ro...@cetrapublishing.com > 5. mailto:ro...@cetrapublishing.com > 6. mailto:mill_r...@yahoo.com > 7. mailto:jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr > 8. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 10. mailto:jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr > 11. http://poirierjm.free.fr/ > 12. mailto:jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr > 13. http://poirierjm.free.fr/ > > > CONFIDENTIALITY DISCLAIMER > The information in this email and in any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. 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