From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti - date of Allemande....
To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>, chriswi...@yahoo.com
Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Tuesday, March 23, 2010, 4:22 AM
Just to speak about the theorbo pieces in
NB Wien 17.706, there's only
one piece with a name attached:
'Allemanda di Angelo Michiele'. Part of
the debate was wether this was our man or
some other theorbo player
with the common first name AM.
I was never sure, but earlier
speculated that on (admittably fairly
loose) stylistic grounds that it might
date from after B's death and
thus be by some other AM.
As regards the other pieces, whilst they
may seem close in
texture/style to the Allemanda, the
question must be why none of these
others is attributed to any
composer/player. I think the most likely
explanation is that the Allemanda is the
exception and that all the
other theorbo pieces are by some
other than 'Angelo Michiele' -
whoever this may be.......
--- On Mon, 22/3/10, chriswi...@yahoo.com
<chriswi...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
From: chriswi...@yahoo.com
<chriswi...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti
- date of Allemande....
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>,
"Monica Hall"
<mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Monday, 22 March, 2010,
20:59
I've lost the thread is well. Would
someone care to sum up what
probably is and maybe is not by our
Signor B?
Chris
--- On Mon, 3/22/10, Monica Hall
<[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:
> From: Monica Hall <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti -
date of Allemande....
> To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> Cc: "Lutelist" <[4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Monday, March 22, 2010, 4:51
PM
> I have lost the thread a bit
> here. We are
talking about the Vienna ms.
> aren't we? I have only got the
pages attributed
> to Bartolotti which you sent me when
we discussed this
> before and I have never really got
to grips with them.
>
> I think it is a reasonable
assumption that Bartolotti died
> in about 1680 - this would be 40
years after his first
> guitar book was printed and would
give him a reasonable life
> span.
>
> As far as attributing the pieces to
him, all that really
> occurs to me is that we should be
cautious about assuming
> that because there are similar names
these necessarily refer
> to the same
person. This is true of the
> Angelo Mikielo guitar
pieces. They are
> rather simple but perhaps he wrote
them for his students.
>
> As ever
>
> Monica
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From:
"Martyn Hodgson"
<[5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "Monica Hall" <[6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>;
> "Lute Dmth" <[7]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 4:26
PM
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti -
date of Allemande....
>
>
> >
> >
> > This
observation was, as you saw,
> entirely speculative and aimed to
> > elicit any
observations. But even so
> it led to no response as I recall
> > - except
now! So thank you
> Monica.
> >
> >
> > Regarding
style, well...... the '
> Allemande di Angelo Michiele'
seemed
> > to me rather
more treble and bass
> polarised - closer to the theorbo
> > works of
deVisee (preserved
> especially in his published book,
the de
> > Saizeny MS and
BN 1575) and the works
> of lutenists writing at the end
> > of the 17th
century like Count Losy -
> than to French lute music up to
> > 1670. Against
this are the theorbo
> pieces by Hurel (eg in Pierpoint
> > Morgan library
17524) which probably
> date closer to 1670 and also show
> > a treble/bass
polarisation.
> >
> > In short, in
lieu of any other input
> I concluded there was no
> > substantive
evidence that the
> Allemande was post 1682 and thus our
AM
> > might well
have been the composer.
> Have you any thoughts? I can scan a
> > few pages if
you want to take it
> further.
> >
> > rgds
> >
> > Martyn
> >
> > In case you're
unfamiliar with this
> interesting MS, regarding the other
> > pieces in the
Ms, many are Dm lute
> pieces by French composers from
> > their 'golden
age' (the few named inc
> Gautier - the inevitable 'Le
> > Canon',
Dufaux) but also from a
> later generation de Gallot,
Bertelli
> > (who also
penned some doubles here)
> and 'C. Logis de Vienne en
>
> Austriche' AND a our man (or
> not) 'Gigue de Angelin de
Rome'. A
> > different hand
(possibly Ginter's)
> has written a fine suite by Ginter.
> > The hand for
most of the lute pieces
> looks, at least to me, identical
> > with that in
the theorbo pieces.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > .
> > --- On Mon,
22/3/10, Monica Hall
> <[8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> wrote:
> >
> > From:
Monica Hall <[9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> >
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti
> - copy of relevant page
> > To:
"Martyn Hodgson" <[10]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> > Cc:
"Lutelist" <[11]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Date:
Monday, 22 March, 2010,
> 14:09
> >
> > I don't have a
solution to this
> particular problem but I was
interested
> > in
> > something
which you said about the
> style of the pieces suggesting a
> > later
> > date in the
earlier
> discussion. To
witt...
> > "The only
thing that bothers me
> about these attributions to A. M.
> > Bartolotti is
the dates: from style
> alone I would have tended to date
> > the NB
> > 17.706 MS to
the end of of the
> 17thC and the Goess pieces no
earler
> > than
> > the 1670s (but
there are a number of
> scribes) - but Claude Chauvel
> > makes a
> > decent case
for B being dead by 1682
> when his Royal Household
> > establishment
> > books were
passed to Launay (of
> course he may have simply retired
but
> > I'd
> > have thought
in that case we'd have
> pension payments recorded). "
> > What Chauvel
actually says is that
> the establishment books record that
> > the
> > possessions
(les biens in French) of
> one Miquelange, Italien were
> > assigned
> > to Launay, not
that the establishment
> books were passed to Launay.
> > Under French
law the possessions of
> foreigners who died in France
> > became the
> > property of
the king to dispose as he
> saw fit. If this
Miquelange,
> > Italien
> > is Bartolotti,
he was presumably dead
> by January 1682 and his worldly
> > goods
> > given to
> Launay. Bartolotti
would still have been
> alive and active in
> > the
> > 1670s but not
later.
> > What is it
about the style of the
> pieces in the Vienna manuscript
which
> > suggests that
they are later that say
> 1680?
> > As ever
> > Monica
> > Could it be
that these two
> A.M.s are not the same;
did he have a son
> > also
> > called A M who
played the
> theorbo? Against such wild
speculation is
> > that B
> > clearly was an
adventurous and,
> indeed, progressive composer so
perhaps
> > the
> > mid 17thC is
not unreasonable.
> > ----- Original
Message -----
> > From: "Martyn
Hodgson" <[1][12]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> > To: "Alexander
Batov" <[2][13]alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com>;
> "Vihuela
> > Dmth"
> > <[3][14]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>;
> "Lute Dmth" <[4][15]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Sent: Monday,
March 22, 2010 8:08 AM
> > Subject:
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti -
> copy of relevant page
> > >
--0-595003020-1269245312=:61374
> > >
Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset=iso-8859-1
> > >
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
> quoted-printable
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you
Alexander - an
> interesting idea. I've scanned my
copy of
> > the
> > > first
page of this 'Preludio'
> and attach it herewith.
> > >
> > > You'll
see that the same number
> is put against different
(tablature)
> > bass
> > > notes -
especially see right at
> the end of the last line.
> > >
> > > My own
preference is that it
> indicates a manner of breaking the
> > chords -
> > > but see
the 4th and 5th chords
> from the end of the last line: a
three
> > > against a
5 note chord -
> possible of course if one beaks the
chord in
> > an
> > > uneven
manner (say the two
> lowest notes and the top three notes
as
> > three
> > > seperate
strikes) but........
> > >
> > > As a very
long stop, I've also
> wondered if it might indicate
duration
> > (eg
> > > number of
seconds or pulses per
> chord) written in by a teacher to
> > indicate
> > > the
interpretation of this
> 'prelude non mesure' .....
but......
> > >
> > > Martyn
> > >
> > >
> > > -- On
Sun, 21/3/10, Alexander
> Batov
> > <[5][16]alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > From:
Alexander Batov
<[6][17]alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com>
> > > Subject:
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti
> > > To:
> > > Cc:
"Lutelist" <[7][18]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > > Date:
Sunday, 21 March, 2010,
> 17:36
> > >
> > >
> > > OK, here
is an idea. In the so
> called "Swan" manuscript
>
> (St-Petersburg,
> > > the
library of the academy of
> science) some of the lute pieces
appear
> > to
> > > be
re-adapted to play on
> baryton, or, indeed, on either. I
don't have
> > a
> > > copy of
this MS with me at the
> moment but if the memory serves me
> > right (I
> > > used to
see the original a
> number of times but that was 25
years
> > ago!), a
> > > similar
sort of numbers are
> written beneath the bottom
tablature
> > line,
> > > next to
the usual bass course
> letters. What this would mean is
that
> > the
> > > person
would play from the
> tablature using the main six strings
of
> > the
> > > baryton,
with the left hand
> thumb plucking the corresponding
drones
> > at the
> > > back of
the neck. And it's those
> drone strings that would have to be
> > > indicated
so as to eliminate
> guess work.
> > >
> > > What you
can do is to check if
> the same numbers (2 or 3, for
> > instance)
> > > mean like
indicating the same
> bass note (judging by what's written
on
> > the
> > > tablature
stave above) or,
> perhaps, if they are written next to
the
> > same
> > > bass
course indications (i.e. as
> for theorbo).
> > >
> > >
Alexander
> > >
> > > On Sat,
20 Mar 2010 Martyn
> Hodgson wrote:
> > >
> > > On the
subject of Bartolotti's
> theorbo works, has anyone yet come
up
> > > with an
interpretation of the
> small numbers under the tablature
stave
> > > in the
Prelude starting at f.
> 90v of Wien NB MS 17.706. Altho'
this
> > > piece
isn't attributed to B., a
> later Allemande in a very similar
> > > style is.
I asked this question
> a few years ago (in fact 14 Dec
2005)
> > > but there
seemed no convincing
> view of what they meant. I've
pasted
> > my
> > > original
query below and would
> be grateful for any insights.
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > ' What I
think are even more
> problematical, are the numbers (ie a
'2'
> > > or a '3')
appearing under some
> chords at the bottom of page 90
(179)
> > in
> > > the
theorbo pieces at the back
> of Wien MS17.706. At first glance
one
> > > might say
these are simply
> shorthand for bass course tablature,
but
> > the
> > > MS uses
the usual strokes (ie a
> /a //a ///a 4 5 6 7) to indicate
> > > these; is
it the number of times
> the chord is repeated? - but in the
> > > context
of the particular chord
> progressions where it appears this
> > > makes
little sense; is it how
> the chord is to be broken? but the
> > > relevant
chords have varying
> numbers of notes (ranging from three
to
> > 5)
> > > and he
also uses the established
> ://: sign for arpeggiation; is it
> > some
> > > LH
fingering? - but in the
> context this again makes no sense.'
> > >
> > > Martyn
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To get on
or off this list see
> list information at
> > > [8][19]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
--0-595003020-1269245312=:61374
> > >
Content-Type: text/html;
> charset=iso-8859-1
> > >
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
> quoted-printable
> > >
> > > <table
cellspacing="0"
> cellpadding="0" border="0"
><tr><td
> > valign="top"
> > >
style="font:
>
inherit;"><DIV> </DIV>
> > >
<DIV>Thank you Alexander -
> an interesting idea. I've scanned my
copy
> > of
> > > the
first page of this
> 'Preludio' and attach it
herewith.</DIV>
> > >
> <DIV> </DIV>
> > >
<DIV>You'll see that the
> same number is put against
different
> > (tablature)
> > > bass
notes - especially see
> right at the end of the last
line.</DIV>
> > >
> <DIV> </DIV>
> > >
<DIV>My own preference is
> that it indicates a manner of
breaking the
> > > chords -
but see the 4th and 5th
> chords from the end of the last
> > line: a
> > > three
against a 5 note chord -
> possible of course if one beaks the
> > chord
> > > in an
uneven manner (say the two
> lowest notes and the top three
notes
> > as
> > > three
seperate strikes)
> but........</DIV>
> > >
> <DIV> </DIV>
> > >
<DIV>As a very long stop,
> I've also wondered if it
might
> > indicate
> > > duration
(eg number of seconds
> or pulses per chord) written in by
a
> > > teacher
to indicate the
> interpretation of this 'prelude non
mesure'
> > >
.....
> but......</DIV>
> > >
> <DIV> </DIV>
> > >
<DIV>Martyn</DIV>
> > >
> <DIV> </DIV>
> > >
> <DIV> </DIV>
> > >
<DIV>-- On <B>Sun,
> 21/3/10, Alexander Batov
> > >
<I><[9][20]alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com></I></B>
>
> wrote:<BR></DIV>
> > >
<BLOCKQUOTE
> style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255)
2px solid;
> > PADDING-LEFT:
> > > 5px;
MARGIN-LEFT:
> 5px"><BR>From: Alexander
Batov
> > >
<[10][21]alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com><BR>Subject:
> [LUTE] Re:
> > >
Bartolotti<BR>To:
> <BR>Cc: "Lutelist"
> > >
<[11][22]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu><BR>Date:
> Sunday, 21 March, 2010,
> > >
17:36<BR><BR>
> > > <DIV
class=plainMail>OK,
> here is an idea. In the so called
"Swan"
> > >
manuscript (St-Petersburg, the
> library of the academy of science)
> > some of
> > > the lute
pieces appear to be
> re-adapted to play on baryton, or,
> > indeed, on
> > > either. I
don't have a copy of
> this MS with me at the moment but
if
> > the
> > > memory
serves me right (I used
> to see the original a number of
times
> > but
> > > that was
25 years ago!), a
> similar sort of numbers are written
> > beneath the
> > > bottom
tablature line, next to
> the usual bass course letters. What
> > this
> > > would
mean is that the person
> would play from the tablature using
the
> > main
> > > six
strings of the baryton, with
> the left hand thumb plucking the
> > >
corresponding drones at the back
> of the neck. And it's those drone
> > strings
> > > that
would have to be indicated
> so as to eliminate guess
>
> work.<BR><BR>What
> > > you can
do is to check if the
> same numbers (2 or 3, for instance)
> > mean
> > > like
indicating the same bass
> note (judging by what's written on
the
> > > tablature
stave above) or,
> > > perhaps,
if they are written
> next to the same bass course
indications
> > > (i.e. as
for
>
theorbo).<BR><BR>Alexander<BR><BR>On
> Sat, 20 Mar 2010
> > Martyn
> > > Hodgson
> wrote:<BR><BR>On the
subject of Bartolotti's
> theorbo works,
> > has
> > > anyone
yet come up<BR>with
> an interpretation of the small
numbers
> > under
> > > the
tablature stave<BR>in
> the Prelude starting at f. 90v of
Wien NB
> > MS
> > > 17.706.
Altho'
> this<BR>piece isn't attributed
to B., a later
> > Allemande in
> > > a very
similar<BR>style
> is. I asked this question a few
years ago (in
> > fact
> > > 14 Dec
2005)<BR>but there
> seemed no convincing view of what
they
> > meant.
> > > I've
pasted my<BR>original
> query below and would be grateful
for any
> > >
>
> insights.<BR><BR><BR>----------------------------------------------
----
>
> ------------------<BR><BR>'
> > > What I
think are even more
> problematical, are the numbers (ie
a
>
> '2'<BR>or
> > > a '3')
appearing under some
> chords at the bottom of page 90
(179)
> > >
in<BR>the theorbo pieces
> at the back of Wien MS17.706. At
first
> > glance
> > >
one<BR>might say these are
> simply shorthand for bass course
> > tablature,
but
> > >
the<BR>MS uses the usual
> strokes (ie a /a //a ///a 4 5 6 7)
to
> > >
indicate<BR>these; is it
> the number of times the chord is
repeated? -
> > but
> > > in
the<BR>context of the
> particular chord progressions where
it
> > appears
> > >
this<BR>makes little
> sense; is it how the chord is to be
broken? but
> > >
the<BR>relevant chords
> have varying numbers of notes
(ranging from
> > three
> > > to
5)<BR>and he also uses
> the established ://: sign for
arpeggiation;
> > is
> > > it
some<BR>LH fingering? -
> but in the context this again makes
no
> > >
>
sense.'<BR><BR>Martyn<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>To
> get on or off this list
> > see
> > > list
information
> at<BR><A
> > >
href="[12][23]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html";
> > >
>
> target=_blank>[13][24]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/i
ndex.htm
>
> l</A><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table><br>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> --0-595003020-1269245312=:61374--
> > > --
> >
> > --
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1.
[25]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> > 2.
[26]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihuel
ademano.com
> > 3.
[27]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> > 4.
[28]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > 5.
[29]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihuel
ademano.com
> > 6.
[30]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihuel
ademano.com
> > 7.
[31]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > 8. [32]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 9.
[33]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihuel
ademano.com
> > 10.
[34]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihuel
ademano.com
> > 11.
[35]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > 12. [36]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 13. [37]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
>
>
>
--
References
1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
10. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
12. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
13.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com
14. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
15. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
16.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com
17.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com
18. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
19. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
20.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com
21.
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22. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
23. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
24. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htm
25. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
26.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com
27. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
28. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
29.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com
30.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com
31. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
32. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
33.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com
34.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com
35. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
36. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
37. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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