No, I don't mind that you've reposted my reply. I sent it off-list due
to its length and the fact I'd included several photos, which won't
post to the list.
Yes, my Penzel lute has a label inside. It reads:
Guenter Penzel
Zupfinstrumentmachermeister
Markneukirchen
Made in Germany 1993
On the label, his first name is spelled with an umlaut, not the "ue"
convention used with keyboards without an umlaut. The label has the
19__ printed on it and the 93 filled in in blue ball point.
On the back side of the peg box is a black ink on white paper label
with the numbers 9993260, which I take to mean the instrument may have
been begun on 9 September, 1993 and would be the 260th instrument/item
built in the shop that year. That's just a rather uneducated guess on
my part. The numbers 1093 are stamped into the wood on the treble side
of the peg box right where the peg box joins the neck. Again, just a
wild guess, but I believe this may indicate the lute was completed in
October, 1993.
Check out www.museum-markneukirchen.de. It's a place where you can ask
questions about instruments from Markneukirchen and maybe (or maybe
not) get some answers. Send them a good, clear photo of the maker's
mark on your lute-- pull the strings aside before you take this photo.
Hope this helps an additional bit.
Steve
__________________________________________________________________
From: Samuel Jacques <dei...@yahoo.com>
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wed, May 12, 2010 8:26:09 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Help identifying 40 year old lute!
I received a very thorough reply from Steve Ramey, which I've
included
below. I hope it is okay for me to repost his email so that the list
may see it? He replied to my email only. This is my first mailing
list subscription and I am not sure on protocol.
I thought I would forward his reply as it has given me a very good
indication of where this lute was made. Althought he pictures are
not
included here, he is right - the case is VERY similar to his. My lute
also has some very big similarities to his, indicating that perhaps
the
lute was made in Germany. Steve, does your german lute have a label
inside?
I find it odd that the maker simply left initials on the instrument
rather than placing a label inside with more information. If the
lute
was made in Germany, that would complicate things for me, as i do not
speak german and the lute was made many years ago. I will perhaps
contact that maker you reffered to.
Also very good information on the strings - thank you. that is an
area
I have not researched yet. I do not mind having the instrument
sounding like a guitar at this point, I am still learning the basic
hand movements.
cheers, and many thanks
--- On Wed, 5/12/10, Steve Ramey <> wrote:
From: Steve Ramey <>
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Help identifying 40 year old lute!
To: "Samuel Jacques" <[1]dei...@yahoo.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 1:59 AM
Hi Samuel,
I have a 7C ren lute that is somewhat similar to yours in appearance.
String length (known as "mensur") on mine is 62 cm. It was made by
"Zupfinstrumentmachermeister" (plucked instrument master maker)
Guenter
Penzel (you can google him) (or at least it was made in his shop) in
Markneukirchen Germany, probably in 1993. I've included some photos.
The points of similarity begin with the case-- mine would appear to
be
virtually an exact duplicate of yours. The treatment of the sound
hole-- different color-- like smoked box wood is similar, as is the
"rider" for the chanterelle (highest pitch string). My Penzel lute
has
numerous guitar-like features-- the raised fingerboard-- it's not
level with the top of the lute; plywood top (spruce over pine);
guitar-style bridge with saddle; and you can't see them, but
guitar-style braces inside on the top. The neck on my lute is
thicker
than it should be for comfortable playing. My Penzel lute weighs
1415
gm. By way of contrast, my 61 cm 8C Dan Larson lute weighs only 677
gm. My Larson lute sounds like a lute should, even though I'm
strictly
a rank amateur at it. My Penzel lute sounds good, but it sounds a
lot
like a guitar, no matter who plays it.
You may note that the position of the bridge on mine is farther "up"
the top than correct lute bridge position (much closer to the bottom
end of the lute)-- see the photo of my 8C Dan Larson lute for
correct
placement of the bridge and sound hole. It appears your bridge is
similar to mine, except your bridge does not appear to have a saddle
(the piece of wood or bone over which the strings pass)(real lute
bridges have no saddle, rather, the strings extend from the bridge to
the nut). Your sound hole appears to be in a more nearly correct
location.
The treatment of the area around the end clasp of our lutes differ--
yours has no clasp.
Shortly after I bought my Penzel lute, also on eBay, another of his
instruments appeared on eBay. It was a 9C ren lute. I've included a
couple of photos of it, for your comparison, as well.
My bottom line on the genesis of your lute is that it was made in an
instrument factory or workshop in what used to be East Germany, quite
possibly back when it was East Germany, based on the metal frets.
The
initials on the top of your instrument would provide definitive
information on either the actual maker, or the master in the shop in
which it was made. Unfortunately, I have no info to help you on that
point.
On to strings-- Generally, string tension for lutes begins at about
35
Newtons for the chanterelle, and decreases slightly as one moves to
the
lower pitch strings. Some folks consider 50 Newtons as beyond the
upper limit of string tension. If your lute weighs in at something
over 1000 gm, my unsubstantiated guess would be that it is of
sufficiently strong construction that it could sustain string
tensions
beginning around 45 Newtons, possibly more. You might do well to
contact Curtis at [1][2]www.AquilaUSA.com for particular guidance.
He
sells the Nylgut strings which do sound more like gut than nylon
strings and although they take a longer time to stabilize when new,
are
not so affected by variation in temp and humidity as nylon strings.
You can tell him what you have and what you want to achieve and he
can
guide you in the right direction. Chris Henrickson at Boston
Catlines
can do the same.
Hope this helps a bit.
Best regards,
Steve
__________________________________________________________________
From: Samuel Jacques <[3]dei...@yahoo.com>
To: [4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Tue, May 11, 2010 8:28:46 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Help identifying 40 year old lute!
Hello! I have to admit I am new to the list, and to lute playing
in
general. I started off by practicing on a cheap paki flat back
lute
(300$) just to see if I would like it, and I do! So today I found
a
beautiful lute on ebay that was still relatively cheap (900$).
Now, I know from reading the archive that there are alot of purists
on
the list - but you know, I love my paki lute since without it, I
would
never have been able to attempt to play this beautiful music. The
sound might not be good, but considering I have never played
guitare
or
any instrument, I'm sure I could even make a $12,000 lute sound
like
a
sick duckling.
So with that in mind, I bought this new lute today. It's a step up
from what I have now, I am sure. But now I would like to know more
about the instrument. The seller could not identify the maker's
mark,
and there is no label inside. The craftmanship seems pretty good
though. here are the pictures:
[2][5]http://s778.photobucket.com/albums/yy65/deides/lute/
and the description (sorry for the size):
* Vintage 8 Course Renaissance Lute w/ original case and wooden peg
tuner * 640 mm scale * The action at the 8th fret measures .181
inches
or 4.60 mm * Ebony, ivory dotted tuners * Neck is curly maple w/
ebony
filets * 15 gorgeous brazilian rosewood ribs w/ an aged german
spruce
top * Rosewood bridge, ebony fretboard and mahogany rose * Curly
maple
and mahogany peg head * This lute sounds fantastic, but there are
issues that have been high-lighted in the pics * The nut has damage
to
the 8th course section * It is chipped, but the strings still stay
where they should * There are various cracks in the spruce top :
below
the bridge, next to the high frets, between the bridge and rose *
What
is nice about these cracks is that they have been there a while and
have remained very tight * There is an excellent binding on this
instrument * There is no reason to repair these cracks and a repair
could diminish the sound quality which is superb * The metal frets
show
little wear and are firmly seated * Not sure of the exact age, but
is
at least 40 years old *
So, could anyone here help me to try and find out a little bit more
about this lute? I already know is it probably from the 70's, so
it
would be heavy, more like a guitare, and the metal frets are quite
typical of a lute made from that era. I can't seem to make out the
makers initials... DM? EM? I wish I knew more about it.
Thank you for any help you could provide!!!
--
To get on or off this list see list information at
[3][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. [7]http://www.AquilaUSA.com/
2. [8]http://s778.photobucket.com/albums/yy65/deides/lute/
3. [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:dei...@yahoo.com
2. http://www.AquilaUSA.com/
3. mailto:dei...@yahoo.com
4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. http://s778.photobucket.com/albums/yy65/deides/lute/
6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
7. http://www.AquilaUSA.com/
8. http://s778.photobucket.com/albums/yy65/deides/lute/
9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
