Correction: With the high course at ca. 0.5 mm and e'' on early Neapolitans and ca. 0.4 mm and g'' on 4th-tuned mandolini, the difference in tension approaches negligible. If anything, the tension on recent use of early Neapolitan mandolins may have been informed by what was possible with the finest available gut on 4th-tuned mandolini. Although by the time of Neapolitan mandolins, there are references in early methods to standard gauges of harpsichord string for use on the a' course.
Best, Eugene > -----Original Message----- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Eugene C. Braig IV > Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 12:21 PM > To: 'Martyn Hodgson'; 'Lute List' > Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin > > Greetings Martyn, > > Of course, more lute-like mandolins comfortably predate wire-strung > mandolins historically. I dont think modern mandolin tension had any > influence on the recent semi-resurgence of early mandolin types. On > typical > modern Neapolitan mandolins, tension on e'' around 6+ kg is pretty common. > Archtop mandolins will range up to 10 or so. Early Neapolitan types often > use gut e'' strings around 0.5 mm at similar scale lengths to 4th-tuned > mandolins, thus are strung just a little heavier than 4th-tuned mandolins, > but still much lighter than fully wire-strung modern mandolins. Also of > course, classical guitars are strung as high as 7 or even 8+ kg, even in > gut. > > Whatever might have been historically available, I really think the > typical > modern tension of 4th-tuned mandolini is simply dictated by the > availability > of finest functional gut now. I've never tried splitting a string, don't > know that I'd trust myself to do so. However, 0.4 mm tends to fray very > quickly as is. Tension certainly has some play in the fraying of gut > fibers, but so does abrasion from the fingers or any contact with nail, > and > if you apply quill, fraying could be accelerated. I think a player could > "eat" through gut of less than 0.4 mm very quickly. That's why I > ordinarily > keep carbon on the highest course or two. > > Best, > Eugene > > ________________________________________ > From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk] > Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 11:45 AM > To: Eugene C. Braig IV > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin > > Dear Eugene, > > Thank you for this. Not being at all familiar with the mandolino, I was > unaware of, what to my mind, seems such high tension (4Kg) being normally > employed on the finger plucked instrument of only around 32cm string > length. > No wonder someone remarked about 'iron bars'. Did this sort of tension > emerge by working back from the later metal strung/bent belly neopolitan > mandolin tensions or was there some other (historical) source you > mandolino > players consulted. Clearly the Ospedale's strings look a very good line of > enquiry. > > Generally the desirable string tension on the lute seems to relate to > string > length so that bigger instruments of the same type (eg 7 course lutes) > mostly require higher tensions. Dowland, for example, tells us that > bigger > lutes need thicker strings. Of course, there's some latitude and it seems > that lute tensions probably went down with an increase in the number of > courses around 1600 (perhaps to keep the instrument from collapsing), > which > in turn required a closer to the bridge plucking position - but all this > is > another, and well rehearsed, story. What I was wanting to suggest is that > a > lower string tension might well be worth exploring on the small mandolino > to, paradoxically, achieve more volume from finger plucking. I'm aware of > the suggestion that 0.4mm is the thinnest gut historically possible but > I'm > not so sure how safe an assumption it is (perhaps for whole guts - but > cannot they be split?). What if, for a test, you tried nylon 0.30mm on the > first (if it's still available) and the rest accordingly? > > Yours even more intrigued > > Martyn > > --- On Fri, 28/5/10, Eugene C. Braig IV <brai...@osu.edu> wrote: > > From: Eugene C. Braig IV <brai...@osu.edu> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin > To: "'Lute List'" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: Friday, 28 May, 2010, 15:45 > Somewhere there is a catalogue of strings intended for shipment to > Vivaldi's famous Ospedale della Piet`a. I don't remember the level of > detail, but do remember it lists strings for mandolin. I think I have > a transcription of that document someplace, but am not certain. I'll > keep my eye open. If anybody else has it, feel free to weigh in. > > > It's hard to find modern gut that functions very well below 0.4 mm > diameter. With string lengths typically around 31-34 cm, depending > upon pitch, I would expect the g'' strings to be pretty substantially > higher in tension. Right now, I have carbon g'' strings on mine > (technically, P-Line CFX flourocarbon fly fishing leader material) at > 0.32 mm. Because of limitations of the strings themselves, the g'' > usually clocks ca. 4 kg. I go to ca. 3 kg on the others. > > > Best, > > Eugene > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk] > Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 4:23 AM > To: Eugene C. Braig IV; Stuart Walsh > Cc: 'Susanne Herre'; 'Lute List' > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin > > > > Not being a mandolino player I hope you don't object to me intruding > and commenting on Timmerman's (fine) performance and the volume he > generates from the instrument. Of course, since the piece is recorded > we have no real means of knowing the volume - for all I know it could > be as loud as a modern grand piano or as soft as a small clavichord. > > > One thing did occur to me though: I sensed he employed a fairly low > string tension (especially noticeable in the trills and the like). I > don't know what tension you mandolino players would normally expect to > use on this sort of instrument (string length 30cm?) but by analogy > with lutes I'd automatically be looking at something around > 1.5Kg/Newtons. Is there historical evidence of the string tension on > these instruments? > > > yours enquiringly > > > Martyn > > > > --- On Thu, 27/5/10, Stuart Walsh <s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote: > > From: Stuart Walsh <s.wa...@ntlworld.com> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin > To: "Eugene C. Braig IV" <brai...@osu.edu> > Cc: "'Susanne Herre'" <mandolinens...@web.de>, "'Lute List'" > <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: Thursday, 27 May, 2010, 22:21 > > Stuart Walsh wrote: > >> > > > > > > I just can't imagine how you get a loud, full sound playing the > instrument fingerstyle when the instrument has such a tiny body. (But > with a plectrum the instrument truly chirps). I think it was Stewart > McCoy who, in a previous discussion of this same subject, said that > mandolino strings at that short string length are going to feel like > steel bars...and they do. So the technique of getting a sound from the > strings of a lute or guitar or wire-string instrument (e.g. English > guitar) wouldn't be any use at all - it would surely be far too gentle? > Well, not for me, anyway. > Well I came across this youtube video of Alex Timmerman playing an > Alemanda by Ceccherini (it's also in Tyler's book). Played with gusto! > Sounds forceful and loud - and punteado/fingerstyle. Dunno how he does > it. Nails? > Stuart > > > > Jake Shimabukuro (modern uke virtuoso) gets a great, full sound but > he seems to have an odd technique based around the RH thumb - nothing > like early guitar or lute technique. > > > > )All those medieval depictions of gitterns have the celestial folk > playing with plectra too.) > > > > So what 's the secret? Nails? Or some unusual aspect of construction > that enables players to use punteado style successfully? > > > > I'd be really interested to hear/see the instrument played > (punteado) - mp3, youtube, anything. A little demo - with fingers, > plectrum, with other instruments?? > > > > > > Stuart > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > >>> Behalf Of Susanne Herre > >>> Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 6:38 AM > >>> To: EUGENE BRAIG IV; Lute List > >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin > >>> > >>> Thank you Eugene! > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Is there in fact any iconography of baroque opera showing a > mandolin > >>> player at all? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Yes, if you play with the quill you will hear more higher > harmonics > >>> because the section which hits the string is not as large as if > you > >>> play with your finger... > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Yes, if you play with thumb-out and want to hit both strings of > one > >>> course you have to play also with a bit of your nail. That > happens > >>> automatically, I made this experience as well. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> All the best, > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Susanne > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> > >>> From: [1]EUGENE BRAIG IV > >>> > >>> To: [2]Susanne Herre ; [3]Lute List > >>> > >>> Cc: [4]davide.rebuffa > >>> > >>> Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:35 AM > >>> > >>> Subject: Re: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin > >>> > >>> I agree with Davide. I'm just aware of no baroque-era > iconography > >>> that implies plectra/quills on 4th-tuned, gut strung > mandolins. If > >>> it were common in the pit for obligati parts, I would think > plectrum > >>> use would be at least occasionally evident in the sketchy > >>> iconography. > >>> I also use quills and more modern plectra on early and modern > >>> Neapolitan mandolins, even on a gut-strung mandolino Toscano, > so I > >>> am accustomed to using plectra. I don't really gain > appreciable > >>> volume applying quill to my 6-course mandolin/o, but in using > quill, > >>> I do lose any bass response I get by using my fingertips. > That > >>> said, I use a combination of flesh and nail on my mandolin/o. > >>> Again, I'm just not aware of any good written references to > >>> technique on 4th-tuned mandolins (or reference to quill use on > same) > >>> until they get only peripheral mention in the literature for > >>> Neapolitan mandolins of the latter half of the 1700s. > >>> Best, > >>> Eugene > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: Susanne Herre <[3]mandolinens...@web.de> > >>> Date: Sunday, May 16, 2010 3:00 am > >>> Subject: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin > >>> To: "davide.rebuffa" <[4]davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it>, Lute > List > >>> <[5]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu> > >>> > > >>> > Dear Davide, > >>> > > >>> > Thank you for your comments! > >>> > > >>> > I still think we can not be so sure about certain things > because > >>> > we don't > >>> > have much evidence. > >>> > > >>> > > - to my knowledge - there is no evidence at all that it > >>> > could be played > >>> > > with a quill before the late XVIIIth century. > >>> > > >>> > Do you have any evidence against quill technique e.g. in > operas? > >>> > It is possible to play with a quill... > >>> > > >>> > I know about some paintings which show the finger technique > (all > >>> > in all we > >>> > don't have much, have we?) but I also saw one picture > (English) > >>> > where there > >>> > seems to be a kind of plectrum. But it is an anonymous > picture > >>> > without any > >>> > year. Also I have seen a still life by Baschenis where there > is > >>> > a quill and > >>> > I don't believe that the violin, the harp or the lute on > this > >>> > picture is > >>> > played with it... > >>> > > >>> > I can't say that I have much experience of comparing the > >>> > loudness of > >>> > different playing techniques with an audience. This maybe > also > >>> > depends on > >>> > different acoustics (as I would use different bows in > different > >>> > concert > >>> > rooms) > >>> > But I think you get a brighter sound with a quill amd then > the > >>> > sound will > >>> > maybe go easier to the > >>> > listeners. But it is interesting to read about your > experience! > >>> > > >>> > I didn't say that amteurs used finger techniques and who > says > >>> > that playing > >>> > with fingers is more complex than playing with a quill? > >>> > If you would like to do it very well it is both not easy... > >>> > I was just considering that there were persons who maybe > played > >>> > the mandolin > >>> > but not the lute or the theorbo. > >>> > > >>> > For the use of the quill I say it could be a possibility, > >>> > "maybe". It is > >>> > just a theory as all is what we try to find out. > >>> > > >>> > I think in the 17th and 18th century there was such a > diversity > >>> > of things > >>> > and not as much standarts as today that we would be > surprised > >>> > what is > >>> > possible if we would have the chance to make a journey to > the > >>> > early times > >>> > ; ) > >>> > > >>> > fingers: fast scales are more difficult, arpeggios more > easy, > >>> > sound is more > >>> > smooth > >>> > quill: arpeggio is more difficult, fast scales mire easy, > sound > >>> > is more > >>> > bright > >>> > So we try to use the advantages of the techniques. The more > >>> > possibilities we > >>> > have, the better... > >>> > > >>> > Yes I also think that in general it is easier to play fast > >>> > scales with thumb > >>> > and index. But some things are easier to do with middle > >>> > finger... So I think > >>> > the best is maybe a combination. > >>> > > >>> > If we look at Weiss he didn't use much the alternation of > thumb > >>> > and index, > >>> > did he? > >>> > So I don't think the techniques are exactly the same because > the > >>> > mandolinhas other musical tasks and really less strings... ; > ) > >>> > > >>> > I agree with you about "milanese", "lombardo" etc. but I'm > tired > >>> > of talking > >>> > about that... ; ) > >>> > > >>> > But I think the nomenclature of "mandolino" and "mandolin" > >>> > is also not very > >>> > helpful because it is only a question of the language... > >>> > At the moment I prefer "baroque mandolin" and "neapolitan > >>> mandolin". > >>> > > >>> > I really would like to see and hear your playing! Please > tell me > >>> > when you > >>> > will be playing near Cologne or do you have any video > etc...? > >>> > And please tell me how your book is developing. > >>> > > >>> > Kind regards and thanks! > >>> > > >>> > Susanne > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > ----- Original Message ----- > >>> > From: "davide.rebuffa" <[6]davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it> > >>> > To: "Susanne Herre" <[7]mandolinens...@web.de> > >>> > Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 11:56 PM > >>> > Subject: Re: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in > italy > >>> > 18th century > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Dear Susanne, > >>> > > > >>> > > thanks for your email and your suggestions. > >>> > > First of all I would say that while there is evidence that > >>> baroque > >>> > > mandolino was played with finger tips ( music, > iconography) > >>> > > - to my knowledge - there is no evidence at all that it > >>> > could be played > >>> > > with a quill before the late XVIIIth century. > >>> > > > >>> > > My experience is just the opposite of what Edward Martin > wrote > >>> > and I > >>> > > wonder if he performed with a baroque orchestra or a > modern > >>> > one or if he > >>> > > used modern plectrums. > >>> > > By the way I would suggest everyboby to stop using the > term > >>> > mandolino> LOMBARDO or MILANESE which is a modern (XIX th > >>> > century) term referred to > >>> > > the 6 single string mandoline that developed and was > played in > >>> > the XIX > >>> > > century untill the beginning of the XX century ( played > with a > >>> > cherrybark> plectrum). > >>> > > It is a very common mistake also here in Italy ( museums, > >>> exhibition > >>> > > catalogues, mandoline makers ect....) very misleading. > >>> > > When I started playing the baroque mandolino, more than 20 > >>> > years ago - > >>> > > having previously played the neapolitan with the plectrum > - I > >>> > thought just > >>> > > like you and I tried to play chamber music with a quill > >>> > for some pieces > >>> > > which didin't require fingers for polyphonic passages, > because > >>> > I thought > >>> > > it could be louder, but then I realized it is not. > >>> > > I also tried to play the same piece in a concert or > concert- > >>> > lecture using > >>> > > the two different tecniques and every body ( musicians, > >>> > audience,> instrument makers...) noticed that if you play > >>> > with fingers it is much > >>> > > louder and sounds better than with any plectrum plectrum. > >>> > > Apart form the loudness you cannot compare the quality > >>> > of sound you get > >>> > > with finger tips. > >>> > > Unless you have a bad instrument you will agree, if you > try.( > >>> > I read you > >>> > > have an Hasenfuss so I suppose it is good and loud > enough) > >>> > > The mandolino plucked with finger tips is very loud, > louder > >>> > than a > >>> > > neapolitan or genovese mandoline played with historical > quills; > >>> > > I play many different original mandolini made in the XVIII > >>> > century, with a > >>> > > low string tension, from different makers and different > string > >>> > lenght as > >>> > > well as copies and I never had any problems of volume > >>> > performing with > >>> > > baroque orchestra in a theatre. > >>> > > So I really cannot understand whay you say that for > cahmber > >>> > music they > >>> > > needed the plectrum, and why XVII and XVIII century > amateurs > >>> > should have > >>> > > used a tecnique which was more difficult and that nobody > >>> > used,except,> maybe, folk musicians on other instruments. > >>> > > I'm sure you know (and tried )that fast arpeggios are > >>> > much more difficult > >>> > > with the plectrum than with finger tips. > >>> > > The sound is brighter but not louder with plectrum. It > could > >>> > almost be the > >>> > > same if you use a modern thick plectrum ( as unfortunatly > many > >>> > mandolin> players do) > >>> > > but if you try with a quill it is not loud at all. > >>> > > > >>> > > The professional mandolin player did not exist before the > >>> neapolitan > >>> > > mandoline became popular, and there is evedence that many > >>> > theorbists and > >>> > > lute player played the mandolino and composed music for > it. Of > >>> > course they > >>> > > played with the only tecnique they knew. > >>> > > Everything is possible in theory but you do not have any > >>> > evidence to say > >>> > > the contrary, do you? > >>> > > > >>> > > Anyway the main question is that most of the music suvived > ( > >>> > staff and > >>> > > tablature) requires the use of the fingers (not only the > very > >>> > few solo > >>> > > pieces) because is not entirely nonodic and unless you > don't > >>> > change the > >>> > > chords positions or arpeggios ( as we have evidence > looking at > >>> the > >>> > > corrections that XVIII century players did in some > pieces). > >>> > > Besides I don't think that a lutenist/ thoerbist would'nt > have > >>> > add some > >>> > > harmony playing a piece written in a single monodic line). > >>> > > > >>> > > You are right when you say that "there is no evidence the > >>> playing > >>> > >> technique will be thumb and index in fast scales. Could > also > >>> > have been > >>> > >> middle plus index or a mixture..."> > >>> > > Index and medium could be possible, can you do it in very > fast > >>> > scales on a > >>> > > mandolino? > >>> > > I can't and I can tell you that Nigel North and Paul > O'Dette > >>> > told me they > >>> > > cannot either or at least they decided to use thumb and > index. > >>> > > I think we can use all the right hand fingerings we find > in > >>> > contemporary> lute pieces (like Weiss tablatures ) and just > >>> > think we have a very small > >>> > > (but loud) lute in our hands. > >>> > > We need more lute players to try the fingerstyle baroque > >>> > mandolino and > >>> > > experiment different lute tecniques on it. > >>> > > By the way I starded to write a book on the early > mandolino > >>> > and mandolin > >>> > > so I'm very interested in collecting new ideas on this > >>> > subject and to > >>> > > learn from anybody if there is evidence. > >>> > > > >>> > > Best wishes, > >>> > > > >>> > > Davide > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > ----- Original Message ----- > >>> > > From: "Susanne Herre" <[8]mandolinens...@web.de> > >>> > > To: "davide.rebuffa" <[9]davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it>; > "Lute List" > >>> > > <[10]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu> > >>> > > Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 8:04 PM > >>> > > Subject: Fw: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in > italy > >>> > 18th century > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Dear Davide, > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Thanks! > >>> > >> > >>> > >> About the use of the quill: I think we can't be sure if > they > >>> > didn't use > >>> > >> it > >>> > >> before the neapolitan mandolin became popular. The lute > in > >>> > middle ages > >>> > >> was > >>> > >> also played with a quill as well as the mandore in the > >>> > renaissance. The > >>> > >> quill could have been very useful in chamber music and > opera. > >>> > >> > >>> > >> I don't think that ALL mandolin players where also lute > and > >>> theorbo > >>> > >> players. > >>> > >> There were also amateurs who maybe not played the lute or > >>> > theorbo. Or > >>> > >> maybe > >>> > >> professionel people who just played mandolin, or, or... > >>> > >> > >>> > >> And as there is no evidence we can't generally say that > the > >>> playing > >>> > >> technique will be thumb and index in fast scales. Could > also > >>> > have been > >>> > >> middle plus index or a mixture... > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Don't you think? > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Best wishes, > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Susanne > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> > >>> From: "davide.rebuffa" > <[11]davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it> > >>> > >>> To: "Susanne Herre" <[12]mandolinens...@web.de> > >>> > >>> Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 6:29 PM > >>> > >>> Subject: Re: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in > >>> > italy 18th > >>> > >>> century > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> Dear Susanne > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> the baroque mandolino ( 4, 5, 6 course) was played with > >>> > finger tips at > >>> > >>>> least untill the middle of the XVIII century: > >>> > >>>> Afterwards, as the roman and neapolitan mandolines > >>> > became popular, > >>> > >>>> they > >>> > >>>> started playing the six course tuned in fourths also > with > >>> > the plectrum, > >>> > >>>> Always thumb out like the baroque lute because all the > >>> mandolino > >>> > >>>> palyers > >>> > >>>> were acyuaslly lute and theorbo players. Thum and index > >>> > alternated for > >>> > >>>> fast > >>> > >>>> notes, arpeggios and 2 or 3 notes chords with thumb > out. > >>> > >>>> In case you are interested I have a class of baroque > >>> > mandolino in > >>> > >>>> Vicenza, > >>> > >>>> Italy, which is the only one in Italy and one of the > very > >>> > few in > >>> > >>>> Europe. > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> I hope this may help, > >>> > >>>> Best regards, > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> Davide > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> > >>>> From: "Susanne Herre" <[13]mandolinens...@web.de> > >>> > >>>> To: "Lute List" <[14]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu> > >>> > >>>> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 12:45 PM > >>> > >>>> Subject: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in > italy > >>> > 18th century > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> Dear Lute Wisdom, > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> It would be great if you could help me. I'm > >>> > doing some research on > >>> > >>>>> the baroque mandolin. > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> I would like to know which italian baroque > >>> > music for lute > >>> > >>>>> instruments do we have from the first half of > >>> > the 18th century? > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> Which composers are represented? > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> Which kinds of instruments are preferred? > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> What is known about playing technique? More > >>> > "thumb-in" or > >>> > >>>>> "thumb-out"? > >>> > >>>>> "Two-voice-chords"- how will they be played? > >>> > How high is the thumb > >>> > >>>>> going? > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> Thanks in advance for any helpful comments! > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> Susanne > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> -- > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at > >>> > >>>>> > [15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> References > >>> > >>> 1. mailto:[16]brai...@osu.edu > >>> 2. mailto:[17]mandolinens...@web.de > >>> 3. mailto:[18]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu > >>> 4. mailto:[19]davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > > References > > 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute- > a...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute- > a...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mandolinens...@web.de > 4. > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it > 5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 6. > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it > 7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mandolinens...@web.de > 8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mandolinens...@web.de > 9. > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it > 10. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 11. > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it > 12. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mandolinens...@web.de > 13. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mandolinens...@web.de > 14. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 16. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu > 17. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mandolinens...@web.de > 18. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 19. > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
