Very good point about uniformity of trebles. Did mandolinos never have
single trebles?
The splitting horn was certainly a known tool but as to the uniformity
of the resultant gut I've no knowledge - perhaps it was even better
though? - We know that at the beginning of the 16thC (whole) gut
strings were naturally slightly conical (mentioned in Capirola f 3v as
the thicker end and the thinner end) - perhaps this splitting horn was
an early form of industrial tool to ensure uniformity?.....
rgds
Martyn
--- On Mon, 31/5/10, EUGENE BRAIG IV <brai...@osu.edu> wrote:
From: EUGENE BRAIG IV <brai...@osu.edu>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs?
To: "Lute List" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Monday, 31 May, 2010, 15:29
I found the document to which I'd referred. Not as useful as I'd
hoped. There are a pair of receipts issued to the Pieta by two
different suppliers in Venice that were discovered by Micky White
and
made available in 2002. One was issued by Selles and spans
March-February 1745, and the other by Montagnana spanning
June-February
1760. There isn't enough detail to be useful in determining string
gauges. A typical entry will read something like "un
maso cantini di mandolino" followed by the sale price.
I'm just a little skeptical about the usefulness of splitting or
grinding strings in this context, but would love to hear of somebody
experimenting with such. My experience with "polished" gut (that
fragments the linear integrity of gut fibers) is that it is
extremely
short-lived at fine gauges. Gut, as an organic fiber, tends to be a
little inconsistent in ways that can sometimes make for questionable
intonation along its length. Of course, this is often cited as one
reason why lutes and guitars carried single chanterelles. The body
of
evidence shows that mandolini typically strung the highest course in
pairs. I would think splitting a fine gut string would exacerbate
issues of inconsistency.
Best,
Eugene
----- Original Message -----
From: Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Monday, May 31, 2010 2:51 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs?
To: Lute List <[2]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, EUGENE BRAIG IV
<[3]brai...@osu.edu>, "davide.rebuffa"
<[4]davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it>
>
>
> Thank you for this.
>
> My original enquiry was not so much about
> conducting a survey of what
> tensions modern manolino preffered but rather to
> cooment on Timmerman's
> recotrding and ask what's the historical evdidence
> for string tensions
> on these instruments. As far as I'm aware, the only
> evidence mentioned
> has been a catalogue of strings for the Ospedale in
> Vivaldi's time - do
> we know anything about these?.
>
> I'm also interested that you use lower tensions on
> larger instruments
> (even as large as 95cm), and would be grateful for
> your evidence to
> support this practice.
>
> regards
>
> Martyn
>
> --- On Sun, 30/5/10, davide.rebuffa
> <[5]davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it> wrote:
>
> From: davide.rebuffa
> <[6]davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it>
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs?
> To: "Lute List"
> <[7]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "EUGENE BRAIG IV"
> <[8]brai...@osu.edu>
> Date: Sunday, 30 May, 2010, 15:42
>
> Dear Martyn
> I agree with Eugene about string tension and right
> hand position.
> ("with my pinky near to the bridge of a
> mandolino, my m, i, and p are
> much nearer to the relative center of the
> vibrating string length than
> they would be on a baroque lute")
> I play with quite high tension and so do my
> students and does Mauro
> Squillante who plays the same copy of a 6 ocurse
> mandolino made for us
> by an italian maker.
> I use 0.40 ( gut or nylgut) for the g top string at
> 415 hz on a short
> string lenght mandolini , 31.8 cm (originals and
> copies from north
> Italy)
> the same 0.40 or 0.38 on original
> mandolini with longer string
> lenght made in central Italy where the standard
> corista was lower ( top
> string in f , 390 hz ) - a 5 course mandolino by
> Smorsone (1721 )
> diapason cm 33.8 cm
> and 4 course by Franchi, diapason 34.9 cm
> (1727 which has single top
> string).
> Theese instruments with longer string lenght,
> narrow and long body
> project wery well even with low tensions but I
> woudn't say the same
> about the mandolini made in Milano at the end of
> the XVIIIth century
> with larger body which need higher tension, I
> suspect this is because
> they were already conceived to be played with the
> plectrum which gives
> a softer sound.
> I might be wrong but my feelings and my experience
> are that I need
> higher tension on small instruments an quite lowe
> on big instruments
> like calichon or theorbo and baroque guitars, but
> not that low on the
> baroque lute.
> regards,
> Davide
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "EUGENE BRAIG IV"
> <[1][9]brai...@osu.edu>
> To: "Lute List" <[2][10]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 2:43 PM
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc---
> tensions and kgs?
> > Of course it is (common knowledge,
> that is, at least relatively
> so).
> > But with modern classical guitars
> sometimes strung to 9 kg or so,
> the
> > single string functions at as high or
> higher a tension than the
> paired
> > course. Also, fingerpicking
> steel-string guitars is not uncommon,
> and
> > even lightly strung, they tend to be
> even higher tension.
> > Regarding the act of plucking itself,
> the feeling of stiffness
> imparted
> > by short scale length doesn't hinder
> after a little practice. If
> > anything, it increases speed and
> accuracy because the strings are
> more
> > consistently close to where they
> started. It's a similar effect to
> > plucking very, very near the bridge,
> as is now common on baroque
> > instruments. Because of scale
> length alone, with my pinky near to
> the
> > bridge of a mandolino, my m, i, and p
> are much nearer to the
> relative
> > center of the vibrating string length
> than they would be on a
> baroque
> > lute. I don't play d-minor
> lute, but I don't mind noodling on
> other
> > folks' on occasion. Plucking
> near the bridge of a d-minor lute
> feels
> > only slightly different to me.
> I suppose that may be only because
> I'm
> > so accustomed to plucking mandolino now.
> > Plucking a mandolino using the finest
> functional strings that are
> > readily available isn't that much
> different with minimal practice.
> Not
> > many yet, but as mentioned earlier,
> there are a fair number of
> > recordings that demonstrate so
> nicely: Tyler, O'Dette, Wedemeier,
> etc.
> > I'm excited to hear another such
> recording is pending with the
> > scholarly Davide Rebuffa doing the
> plucking. > I think it's possible that
> the high tessitura of such things may in
> > part be why chamber music and
> concerti make up such a higher
> relative
> > proportion of extant baroque
> mandolino repertoire, where that for
> lute
> > favors solos. Not only does the
> expanded bass lend itself to a
> more
> > satisfying self accompaniment on
> lute, but all the previously
> discussed
> > factors trend to add up to better
> projection, a better ability to
> "cut"
> > above accompanying instruments.
> Also, I am aware of absolutely no
> > evidence one way or the other, but I
> suspect nail use may have been
> > more common to mandolino players than
> d-minor lute players.
> > ...And by the early classical and the
> era of published mandolin
> > methods, the burgeoning popularity of
> the Neapolitan type, the
> music of
> > Hoffmann, etc. it DOES appear that
> plectrum play on 4th-tuned
> > mandolini was becoming common.
> > Really, before losing oneself in
> bewilderment, one should pick up a
> 5-
> > or 6-course mandolino and pluck a few
> notes with the fingers. It's
> not
> > so bad.
> > Best,
> > Eugene
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Martyn Hodgson
> <[3][11]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> >
> Date: Sunday, May 30, 2010 4:09 am
> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins
> etc--- tensions and kgs?
> > To: Lute List
> <[4][12]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, EUGENE BRAIG IV
> > <[5][13]brai...@osu.edu>
> > >
> > > Dear Eugene,
> > >
> > > There is really
> is no difficulty here. The heart of
> > > the matter is that
> > > tension needs to
> be related to string length, so
> > > that with similar
> > > instruments,
> bigger ones (and used eg Dowland as
> > > said)) higher tension
> > > than their
> smaller counterparts - see the earlier
> > > communication about
> > > this. So for a
> small string length, like on the
> > > mandolino which is
> > > around half the
> string length of a mean lute, a
> > > tension of as low as a
> > > half is suggested
> for similar 'feel' ie 3Kg/2 =
> > > 1.5Kg (which is why I
> > > suggested a trial
> at around this level). The
> > > converse is also the case
> > > with large
> theorbos needing higher tensions than a
> > > mean lute.
> > >
> > > The modern
> 'classical' guitar is single strung
> > > (like some theorbos) and
> > > can be played
> with a higher level of tension (as
> > > Stuart found out when
> > > he tried single
> strings). > >
> > > I thought all
> this was common knowledge.....
> > >
> > > regards
> > >
> > > Martyn
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Sun,
> 30/5/10, EUGENE BRAIG IV
> > > <[6][14]brai...@osu.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > From:
> EUGENE BRAIG IV <[7][15]brai...@osu.edu>
> > >
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins
> > > etc--- tensions and kgs?
> > > To:
> "Lute List" <[8][16]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > > Date:
> Sunday, 30 May, 2010, 5:26
> > >
> > >
> I don't know why tension should
> > > have much to do with punteado vs.
> > >
> plectrum. I also certainly
> > > would not consider approx. 3.0-4.0 kg
> > > per
> > >
> string (as I use on my mandolino)
> > > "high" tension. Guitars are often
> > >
> much higher, modern classical or
> > > even 19th c. It's not even far
> > > from
> > >
> what some players use on
> > > lutes. On his string
> calculator page,
> > >
> Arto cites 3.0 kg as his standard
> > > and 4.0 as preferred on archlute.
> > >
> Eugene >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> -
> > >
> From: Stuart Walsh
> > >
> <[1][9][17]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> Date:
> > > Friday, May 28, 2010 6:13 pm
> > >
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque
> > > mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs?
> > >
> To: David van Ooijen
> > > <[2][10][18]davidvanooi...@gmail.com>
> > > Cc: Lute List
> <[3][11][19]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu> >
> > > David van Ooijen wrote:
> > >
> > > On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 9:17
> > > PM, Stuart Walsh
> > >
> > <[4][12][20]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> Is there a simple
> > > explanation, somewhere, of string
> tensions >
> > > and what 3kg or
> > >
> > >> 7 kg etc means and what is
> > > the significance of it. I've never
> > >
> > understood>> what it's all about.
> > >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I wrote this some years ago,
> > > so I could understand what it was
> > >
> > all about:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > - Calculating String Tensions
> > >
> > > Explaining the why and how of
> > > calculating strings for lutes.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
[5][13][21]http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/stringtension
_f.htm
> > > >
> > >
> > Thank you for this. I
> > > read it as carefully as I could!
> > > >
> > >
> > To be honest, I got as far as
> > > "the frequency of a string
> > >
> > [frequency=pitch?] is directly
> > > related [=is?] the square root of
> > >
> > its
> > >
> > tension." and a sort of filter
> > > kicks in.
> > >
> > A bit like when a plumber comes
> > > to fix something (at great
> > >
> > expense) and
> > >
> > explains all the minute details
> > > when I just want to know whether
> > >
> > the
> > >
> > toilet will flush or not.
> > > >
> > >
> > But what you say confirms
> > > (if I've understood you) what I
> > >
> > thought about
> > >
> > high tension stringing, playing
> > > with nails (plectrum) etc and
> > >
> > that maybe
> > >
> > old instruments were more
> > > lightly constructed with strings
> > >
> > at lower
> > >
> > tension, needing a gentler mode
> > > of playing.
> > > >
> > >
> > And so this is the
> > > problem with tiny instruments like the
> > >
> > mandolino
> > >
> > where the strings are
> > > inevitably (?) going to be high
> tension -
> > >
> > how can
> > >
> > they be fingerstyle/punteado
> > > instruments rather than plectrum
> > >
> > instruments (even if some of
> > > the music for them looks -
> > >
> > superficially? -
> > >
> > as if it can't be played with
> > > a plectrum)
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > Stuart
> > > >
> > >
> > (not a plectrum player)
> > >
> --
> > > To get on or off
> this list see list information at
> > >
> [6][14][22]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > References
> > >
> > > 1.
> > >
>
>
[15][23]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworl
d.com
> 2.
> >
>
[16][24]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gma
il.com
> > > 3.
> > >
>
>
[17][25]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmou
th.edu
> 4.
>
>
[18][26]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworl
d.com
> > 5.
> > >
>
>
[19][27]http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/stringtension
_f.htm
> 6.
[20][28]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > > --
> >
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1.
>
[29]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu 2.
[30]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 3.
>
[31]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo
.co.uk
4.
[32]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 5.
>
[33]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu 6.
[34]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu
> 7.
>
[35]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu 8.
[36]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 9.
>
[37]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
10.
[38]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmai
l.com
> 11.
>
[39]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
12.
[40]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
> 13.
>
[41]http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/stringtension_f.htm
14. [42]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 15.
>
[43]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
16.
[44]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmai
l.com
> 17.
>
[45]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
18.
[46]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
> 19.
>
[47]http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/stringtension_f.htm
20. [48]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> --
To get on or off this list see list information at
[49]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu
4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it
5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it
6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it
7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu
9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu
10. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
12. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
13. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu
14. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu
15. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu
16. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
17. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
18. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmail.com
19. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
20. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
21. http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/stringtension
22. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
23. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
24. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gma
25. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
26. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
27. http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/stringtension_f.htm
28. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
29. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu
30. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
31. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
32. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
33. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu
34. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu
35. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu
36. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
37. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
38. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmail.com
39. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
40. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
41. http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/stringtension_f.htm
42. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
43. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
44. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmail.com
45. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
46. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
47. http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/stringtension_f.htm
48. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
49. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
