Again, I think one of the best cases for making the distinction between instrument types is that they each have distinct bodies of dedicated repertoire. I tend to believe an instrument is called what its makers and players called it. While obviously similarly inspired, these things were somewhat distinct in application and even in some construction conventions, even if the differences in construction were largely superficial.
Best, Eugene ----- Original Message ----- From: Alexander Batov <alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com> Date: Tuesday, June 1, 2010 3:19 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc---not forgetting the French mandore To: Lute List <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Many good points, Stuart. I myself is a long term fan of this > this > little instrument (although not so much nowadays) and have made > a number > of copies of both the mandore and mandolino. I could never > really see > any hard reasons to distinguish them (I'm talking about early > 17th - mid > 18th century time frame). In fact, constructionally and in terms > of size > it is the same instrument and that's the main thing! There is > also an > evidence of a small late 16th century descant lute by Venere > that was > converted to a 6-course mandolino (hardly surprising, bearing in > mind a > suitable body size at hand!). As for the stringing, there seemed > to be > all different sorts of combinations, with 5- and 6-course > instruments > being double-strung throughout, or with a single first course, > not to > say with 4, 5 and, occasionally, 6 single strings (again, within > the > above-mentioned period). The Ulm MS has plenty of right hand > fingering > indications (underline for a thumb, single and double dots for > fore- and > middle fingers, in other words, finger-plucked entirely). > > Alexander > > On 01/06/2010 18:11, Stuart Walsh wrote: > > EUGENE BRAIG IV wrote: > >> Indeed, but the late renaissance mandore > was distinct from Italian > >> mandolino. > > > > > > Not that distinct Eugene. Late Renaissance = Early > Baroque? The Ulm > > MS (which I would really like to get hold of) is 1625-30 and > there are > > sources of music throughout the 17th century. (info from > Tyler's book) > > > > Aren't we simply talking about one instrument: a small, lute- > like > > instrument with with gut strings which in France was called > the > > 'mandore' and in Italy, the 'mandola/mandolino'? And for both, > there > > are references to the top string as at g''. And even, > sometimes the > > mandore was double-strung. So: same sort of size, shape, > string material. > > > > But the French version was in a different tuning (with > variants) and > > seems to have lost popularity in the 17th century whereas the > Italian > > version in the fourths tuning (from the 17th century) has > never quite > > died out. > > > > Unlike the mandola/mandolino, there are contemporary > accounts of how > > the mandore was played: with a quill, with a quill tied to a > finger > > (very odd?), with a single finger (presumably dedillo style) > and plain > > fingerstyle. And there are descriptions of how loud it can > sound (e.g. > > dominating a consort of lutes - Trichet). > > > > It strikes me as a bit odd that an evidently popular > instrument > > typically with single strings should get them doubled as it > became > > more Italianate. Could the single-string instruments be of > lighter > > construction? But mandolini are incredibly light anyway. Would > the > > double stringing of courses make the instruments louder. But > > contemporary accounts suggest that the mandore was loud. Would > the > > double stringing favour a particular way of playing the strings? > > > > Lastly, Tyler quotes a French source from 1690 saying that > some > > mandore players used a plectrum tied to the index finger for > the first > > course and the thumb on the lower courses. Is it possible that > some > > mandola/mandolino music was played in some sort of way with > both quill > > and fingers? > > > > > > Stuart > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
