I just checked how it works on my lute and, yes, I get a slight
difference, too. I guess my ear has been absorbing it. There are a lot
of factors going into it so it'll be pretty complex trying to find the
root(s) of this. I'll assume you have your frets set to the proper
meantone place and, regardless, they should both sound at the same
pitch if fretted together.
Could it be that your finger depresses the fundamental and octave
differently? I use roped gut and the fundamental, being larger, means
I have to press harder on it than necessary to also sufficiently press
the octave (I hope this is clear). This bends the fundamental a shade
more.
How is the age on your nylguts? They _do_ go out of true over time tho
from experience I can only speak to using under .6omm nylguts. Do you
get any kind of visual ghost wave when you pluck either string? --this
usually indicates an out-of-true string. Are you at all pushing the
limits of either string to get the desired pitch --maybe one moreso
than the other?
Do you think your fundamental could have picked up any extra mass from
your left fingers? Added grease and dirt at one end will screw with
their trueness. Likewise, any gut fraying will lighten the vibrating
mass at that end (while it's still part of the string it doesn't
vibrate together w/ the string) tho this probably isn't applicable in
your non-gut case.
When using your tuning box, do you see some wavering of pitch? This is
pretty common and might have a bearing on your situation.
Another variable is the flexibility of the vibrating string just
immediately next to the fret. One thickness may allow it to vibrate
more freely coming off the fret. This, in turn, changes the vibrating
length.
Anyway, Peter, those are the first thoughts that come to mind. Any one
of these variables may be minimal but if two or more play a role then
it could cause a noticable effect. I don't think you want to change to
change to dual unison strings just yet. Yes, it may solve this problem
but may work against sounding right for the repertory.
hope this helps,
Sean
On Jul 10, 2010, at 11:19 PM, Peter Ruskoff wrote:
All right, lute gurus. This question has been plaguing me since I
started playing the lute about 2 years ago. The reason I always
hesitated asking on this list is because of the length required to
explain whats going on. I apologize in advance for the length.
I have an 8c Ren. lute made by LK Brown. Nice lute. But my 6th
course
(g course) will NOT fret in tune. Only my 6th course. The octave
always sounds to flat against the fundamental when tuned with an
electronic tuner or against the chantarelle. Always. Please note
that
we are talking about maybe 3 or 4 cents out of tune here (which is
PLENTY out of tune when talking about octaves), but technically
nothing
huge.
My frets are fine and have been changed 3 times in two years.
There is
nothing wrong with the neck, and since the out of tune severity is
IDENTICAL anywhere on the neck, it tells me it has nothing to do
with
string diameters either. Though currently it is strung in Nylgut
type
D for fundamental and plain for the octave (my favorite sound), I
have
tried everything from unwound gut to savarez overwounds to
carbonfiber
in every possible combination. None of the strings are false.
Everything gives a near identical result, even with the extreme
diameter differences of unwound gut.
Again let me reiterate: when tuning with an electronic tuner, my 6th
course octave always sounds flat. "Well, just tune it sharper to
solve
the problem," you say. "Electronic tuners aren't perfect." This is
very true. But here's the kicker: the string it ISN'T flat, both
according to my electronic tuner and other G notes around the
lute. In
other words, when I fret a note, say Bb (3rd fret) on the 6th
course,
it will give the distinct unpleasant warble of being a few cents
out of
tune and the octave sounds flat. But when I check it against say,
the
Bb on the first fret of the third course, OR the electronic tuner,
it
is CLEARLY NOT FLAT. When I make the string sharper to get rid of
the
warble, the string is (surprise) too sharp. And I have to get
pretty
darn sharp before it sounds too sharp.
What the heck is going on here? While I don't have perfect pitch,
I am
darn close (one of the reasons I stopped playing guitar is my
disgust
with being locked into equal temperament), and I refuse to believe
my
ear is the problem for one string on one course on one lute. How
can
it both be flat and not flat at the same time? Remember, I'm not
talking about temperaments or anything, I'm talking about the one
course simply not fretting in tune.
The ONLY thing I can possibly think of--and this seems to be a bit
of a
stretch--is some kind of issue with the overtones on my instrument.
Maybe some kind of wolf? But why would it be the same problem on
the
first fret as the third? Or the fifth? Or the eighth? It makes no
sense. A wolf is a problem in one area of an instrument, not the
whole
range of a string.
The 'best' solution I can come up with (and how I've been playing
for 2
years) is to split the difference: I tune my g fundamental
slightly too
flat, my octave slightly too sharp, the mean of the two pitches
around
where an in tune g should be. It's a decent solution, but there's
still that unpleasant "warble" that sends up red flags in my ears
that
screams OUT OF TUNE. It's frustrating. Remember, to get rid of the
warble, I have to tune the octave so sharp it becomes unusable when
playing more than just that course by itself, which is all the time.
Unfortunately I have no teacher or anyone who lives within
hundreds of
miles of me who even owns a lute (dang American Southwest). I
have a
violinist fried to whom I can demonstrate this problem (her ear is
excellent) and while she hears it (yay I'm not crazy), she doesn't
know
the first things about lutes in general, let alone how to solve the
problem.
Does anyone have any pearls of wisdom on this subject? I've never
seen
it discussed before. Is there something I'm missing? Am I SOL? Is
every g octave string I've owned simply evil? I'd love this to be
finally put to rest.
Again, thanks in advance.
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